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[其它] 对PC—HIFI很关注~~~~~

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发表于 2010-12-14 22:17 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 bastenpi 于 2010-12-13 20:51 发表
对于技术的争论(应该叫讨论吧) 我觉得似乎大家都有点过头了,火气有点大啊,呵呵,昨天看了AV199论坛zzz1111 大侠的高达1799楼的长帖真是感慨,既懂技术又能耐心细心把抽象技术问题描述得简单易懂,对于各种极不礼 ...



“录制Jitter是小却不可补救,好在转盘输出Jitter和传输Jitter都是可以补救的。为什么?很简单,因为不管送过来的PCM内含时钟有多大漂移(只要还能锁定同步),DA部件用屁股都能猜出时钟应该是什么样(44.1k?88.2k? 48k? 96k?...反正不会是44.10001或95.99999)。DA部件只要使用独立时钟驱动DA芯片就行了,这时的Jitter就只是DA独立时钟的Jitter,前面的除了录制Jitter已经体现在数据(而非时序)中无法改变外,其它的Jitters都被滤掉了。

这是那位大侠说的话,雷人啊,不知祸害了多少人[s:41]

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发表于 2010-12-14 23:44 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 顺溜 于 2010-12-14 22:17 发表



“录制Jitter是小却不可补救,好在转盘输出Jitter和传输Jitter都是可以补救的。为什么?很简单,因为不管送过来的PCM内含时钟有多大漂移(只要还能锁定同步),DA部件用屁股都能猜出时钟应该是什么样(44.1k? ...

顺溜同学这么执着啊,赢得了最后的胜利,就象1947年孟良崮战役一样,国共双方胜负机遇各一半,最后拼的就是耐力。[s:41]
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发表于 2010-12-14 23:57 | 显示全部楼层

回复 136# 顺溜 的帖子

参考:
BENCHMARK DAC1 的用户手册对DAC jitter的介绍
UltraLock™ … What is It?
Accurate 24-bit audio conversion requires a very low-jitter conversion clock. Jitter can very easily turn a 24-bit
converter into a 16-bit converter (or worse). There is no point in buying a 24-bit converter if clock jitter has not
been adequately addressed.
Jitter is present on every digital audio interface. This type of jitter is known as “interface jitter” and it is present
even in the most carefully designed audio systems. Interface jitter accumulates as digital signals travel down a
cable and from one digital device to the next. If we measure interface jitter in a typical system we will find that it
is 10 to 10,000 times higher than the level required for accurate 24-bit conversion. Fortunately, this interface
jitter has absolutely no effect on the audio unless it influences the conversion clock in an analog-to-digital
converter (ADC) or in a digital-to-analog converter (DAC).
Many converters use a single-stage Phase Lock Loop (PLL) circuit to derive their conversion clocks from
AES/EBU, Wordclock, or Superclock reference signals. Single-stage PLL circuits provide some jitter attenuation
above 5 kHz but none below 5 kHz. Unfortunately, digital audio signals often have their strongest jitter
components at 2 kHz. Consequently, these converters can achieve their rated performance only when driven
from very low jitter sources and through very short cables. It is highly unlikely that any converter with a singlestage
PLL can achieve better than 16 bits of performance in a typical installation. Specified performance may be
severely degraded in most installations.
Better converters usually use a two-stage PLL circuit to filter out more of the interface jitter. In theory, a twostage
PLL can remove enough of the jitter to achieve accurate 24-bit conversion (and some do). However, not all
two-stage PLL circuits are created equal. Many two-stage PLL’s do not remove enough of the low-frequency
jitter. In addition, two-stage PLL circuits often require several seconds to lock to an incoming signal. Finally, a
two-stage PLL may fail to lock when jitter is too high, or when the reference sample frequency has drifted.
UltraLock™ converters exceed the jitter performance of two-stage PLL converters, and are free from the slowlock
and no-lock problems that can plague two-stage PLL designs. UltraLock™ converters are 100% immune to
interface jitter under all operating conditions. No jitter-induced artifacts can be detected using an Audio Precision
System 2 Cascade test set. Measurement limits include detection of artifacts as low as –140 dBFS, application of
jitter amplitudes as high as 12.75 UI, and application of jitter over a frequency range of 2 Hz to 200 kHz. Any
AES/EBU signal that can be decoded by the AES/EBU receiver will be reproduced without the addition of any
measurable jitter artifacts.
The DAC1, DAC-104 and the ADC-104 employ Benchmark’s new UltraLock™ technology to eliminate all jitterinduced
performance problems. UltraLock™ technology isolates the conversion clock from the digital audio
interface clock. Jitter on a DAC digital audio input, or an ADC reference input can never have any measurable
effect on the conversion clock of an UltraLock™ converter. In an UltraLock™ converter, the conversion clock is
never phase-locked to a reference clock. Instead the converter oversampling-ratio is varied with extremely high
precision to achieve the proper phase relationship to the reference clock. Interface jitter cannot degrade the
quality of the audio conversion. Specified performance is consistent and repeatable in any installation!
How does conversion clock jitter degrade converter performance?
Problem #1: Jitter phase modulates the audio signal. This modulation creates sidebands (unwanted tones)
above and below every tone in the audio signal. Worse yet, these sidebands are often widely separated from the
tones in the original signal.
Jitter-induced sidebands are not musical in nature because they are not harmonically related to the original audio.
Furthermore, these sidebands are poorly masked (easy to hear) because they can be widely separated above
and below the frequencies of the original audio tones. In many ways, jitter induced distortion resembles
intermodulation distortion (IMD). Like IMD, jitter induced distortion is much more audible than harmonic distortion,
and more audible than THD measurements would suggest.
Benchmark Media Systems, Inc.
Page 23 of 39
Jitter creates “new audio” that is not harmonically related to the original audio signal. This “new audio” is
unexpected and unwanted. It can cause a loss of imaging, and can add a low and mid frequency “muddiness” that
was not in the original audio.
Jitter induced sidebands can be measured using an FFT analyzer.
Problem #2: Jitter can severely degrade the anti-alias filters in an oversampling converter. This is a little known
but easily measurable effect. Most audio converters operate at high oversampling ratios. This allows the use of
high-performance digital anti-alias filters in place of the relatively poor performing analog anti-alias filters. In
theory, digital anti-alias filters can have extremely sharp cutoff characteristics, and very few negative effects on
the in-band audio signal. Digital anti-alias filters are usually designed to achieve at least 100 dB of stop-band
attenuation. But, digital filters are designed using the mathematical assumption that the time interval between
samples is a constant. Unfortunately, sample clock jitter in an ADC or DAC varies the effective time interval
between samples. This variation alters the performance of these carefully designed filters. Small amounts of
jitter can severely degrade stop-band performance, and can render these filters useless for preventing aliasing.
The obvious function of a digital anti-alias filter is the removal of audio tones that are too high in frequency to be
represented at the selected sample rate. The not-so-obvious function is the removal of high-frequency signals that
originate inside the converter box, or even originate inside the converter IC. These high-frequency signals are a
result of crosstalk between digital and analog signals, and may have high amplitudes in a poorly designed
system. Under ideal (low jitter) conditions, a digital anti-alias filter may remove most of this unwanted noise
before it can alias down into lower (audio) frequencies. These crosstalk problems may not become obvious until
jitter is present.
Stop-band attenuation can be measured very easily by sweeping a test tone between 24 kHz and at least 200
kHz while monitoring the output of the converter.
Put UltraLock™ converters to the test:
We encourage our customers to perform the above tests on UltraLock™ converters (or let your ears be the
judge). There will be absolutely no change in performance as jitter is added to any digital input on an UltraLock™
converter. Try the same tests on any converter using conventional single or two-stage PLL circuits. Tests should
be performed with varying levels of jitter and with varying jitter frequencies. The results will be very enlightening.
Jitter related problems have audible (and measurable) effects on ADC and DAC devices. Practitioners of Digital
Audio need to understand these effects.
Is it possible to eliminate all of the effects of jitter in an entire digital audio system?
Interface jitter will accumulate throughout even the most carefully designed digital audio system. Fortunately,
interface jitter can only degrade digital audio if it affects the sampling circuit in an analog-to-digital or digital-toanalog
converter. Any attempt to cure jitter outside of an ADC or DAC will prove expensive and, at best, will only
partially reduce jitter-induced artifacts. Dedicated clock signals (word clock, and super clock, etc.) are often
distributed to A/D converters and D/A converters in an attempt to reduce jitter. Again, these are only partial
solutions because jitter even accumulates in these clock distribution systems. Furthermore, a poor quality master
clock generator can degrade the performance of the entire system (if converter performance is dependent upon
reference clock quality. Jitter free ADC’s and DAC’s are the only true insurance against the ill effects of jitter.
UltraLock™ converters are jitter immune under all operating conditions (they will never add audible jitter induced
artifacts to an audio signal).
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发表于 2010-12-15 00:14 | 显示全部楼层
参考 WADIA的时钟回送技术:http://www.wadia.com/technology/clocklink/
Wadia's ClockLink provides the most effective jitter reduction of any technique available. With ClockLink, the master clock is in close proximity to the DAC section, rather than at the transport. This eliminates the need to transmit the clock from the transport section to the DAC, resulting in lower jitter and improved sonic performance.

Jitter, or clock timing error, causes uneven spacing of successive pulses from the DAC. These clock timing errors are cumulative; as the clock signal travels from the master clock, each additional circuit board trace, connection, and circuit element adds more jitter to the clock signal. This jitter is easily audible in the form of an artificial haze, harshness, as well as overall lack of resolution.

Conventional CD player with Clock at Transport
In conventional designs, the clock circuit is constructed as part of the transport mechanism so that it can control the transport speed. The clock signal is then combined with the data and transmitted to the DAC section. Along the way, jitter contaminates the signal resulting in audible distortion.


no_cl.jpg


Wadia ClockLink System with Clock at DAC
Wadia's ClockLink system positions the master clock directly adjacent to the DAC chips on the main circuit board. This results in the absolute shortest signal path between the clock and DACs, eliminating jitter that would be added during clock transmission to the DAC board.
with_cl.jpg


The sonic result is immediately recognizable. Experienced listeners will notice a greater degree of immediacy, focus, and clarity. Instrumental images are more convincingly realistic. High frequencies are pure and well integrated into the rest of the sonic spectrum.
音联邦
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 楼主| 发表于 2010-12-15 08:57 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 顺溜 于 2010-12-10 13:36 发表


没什么好看的,几个现实就可以给PCHIFI定个义:
1:声卡输出是S/PDIF吧?S/PDIF和I2S孰优孰劣?
2:S/PDIF或者I2S包含时钟吧,时钟从哪来?还不是来源于PCI插槽上的电流。

不要说什么异步采样,这是补救措施

PCHIFI的优势就是高码文件播放,管理方便。除此之外啥也别说了。


我来学习请教一下:

对于USB接口或1394接口的独立供电的外置声卡及DAC来说,应该不会有您说的弊端吧!

[ 本帖最后由 tty123 于 2010-12-15 09:08 编辑 ]
香港弦声音响
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发表于 2010-12-15 13:18 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 tty123 于 2010-12-15 08:57 发表


我来学习请教一下:

对于USB接口或1394接口的独立供电的外置声卡及DAC来说,应该不会有您说的弊端吧!



USB总线的优先级远不如PCI总线,这就使得在系统忙的状态下,对于实时数据需求量很大的USB声卡来说,就会出现断断续续的现象。由于USB总线采用了共享模式,所以USB硬盘、USB光驱这些同样需要大数据流量的设备会和USB声卡争夺有限的数据带宽,从而导致USB声卡和这些设备共用的时候就会出现如当年PCI声卡和PCI显卡所出现的爆音现象

usb的传输标准是最低的,1394比usb高,pci的传输标准是最高的。USB想HIEND,那是痴人说梦。

外置电源只解决了部分问题,以BB的27系列USB接口为例,其使用了SPActTM(采样期内自适应控制跟踪)系统。该系统能够从USB接口的音频数据中分离出一个稳定的、偏差较小的时钟信号,注意,是“分离”!SPActTM可以缓解JITTER,但不能消除。

其实,你了解了解USB接口中,D+D-传输的是怎样的音频数据格式,所有疑问都会消失。

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发表于 2010-12-15 13:28 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 bastenpi 于 2010-12-15 00:14 发表
参考 WADIA的时钟回送技术:http://www.wadia.com/technology/clocklink/
Wadia's ClockLink provides the most effective jitter reduction of any technique available. With ClockLink, the master clock is in  ...


你还时翻译成中文在贴出来吧,光俺看明白没用,让大家都看的清楚才对。

时钟回授是一个HIFI手段,说实在的,声卡能解决时钟和电源问题,还是可以达到比较高的水平的。

时钟回授可以让系统从头到尾使用同一时钟,可以基本消除传输中的JITTER(SOC芯片自身的JITTER是无能为力的)。那位大侠妄言让DAC自己用个时钟就能解决所有问题,他显然忘了数字音频最重要的因素之一:同步!

很多人迷信PCHIFI,都是因为了解不够,当你深入了解后,你才知道PCHIFI的“血泪史”[s:41]

俺也请你们这些PCHIFI崇拜者解释一个现象:俺用的是创新1212M声卡,使用数字输出到外置DAC时,明显比板载声卡的数字输出要强很多,这咋回事?你们不是说数字输出都一样的吗?[s:14] [s:14]

看来花大钱买好声卡的人真是脑子进水了[s:14]

[ 本帖最后由 顺溜 于 2010-12-15 13:46 编辑 ]
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发表于 2010-12-15 13:46 | 显示全部楼层
顺溜同志可以心平气和地讨论问题了,这很好啊。不过看了几个帖子,还是有些错误认识呀。:shutup:
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发表于 2010-12-15 13:47 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 jamesgjh 于 2010-12-15 13:46 发表
顺溜同志可以心平气和地讨论问题了,这很好啊。不过看了几个帖子,还是有些错误认识呀。:shutup:



请你一边凉快去好吗?[s:97]
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发表于 2010-12-15 14:03 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 顺溜 于 2010-12-15 13:47 发表
请你一边凉快去好吗?[s:97]


这可是你先口出不逊找骂的啊。你个冒儿不懂瞎说,我是怕你误导别人才给大家提个醒儿,你以为没人反驳你就对了,大家是不愿意跟你这个无知、无聊、无脸皮的三无产品为伍。

建议大家不要在这里问什么问题了,像顺溜之类盘踞在这里,不要期待有什么收货了。
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发表于 2010-12-15 14:26 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 jamesgjh 于 2010-12-15 14:03 发表


这可是你先口出不逊找骂的啊。你个冒儿不懂瞎说,我是怕你误导别人才给大家提个醒儿,你以为没人反驳你就对了,大家是不愿意跟你这个无知、无聊、无脸皮的三无产品为伍。

建议大家不要在这里问什么问题了,像 ...

应该说论坛的顺溜不是神枪手,而是狙击手,对于他提出的问题,你要认真回答,直到他满意为止,玩笑话不可当真。[s:41]
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发表于 2010-12-15 14:29 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 顺溜 于 2010-12-15 13:28 发表


你还时翻译成中文在贴出来吧,光俺看明白没用,让大家都看的清楚才对。

时钟回授是一个HIFI手段,说实在的,声卡能解决时钟和电源问题,还是可以达到比较高的水平的。

时钟回授可以让系统从头到尾使用同一时钟,可以基本消除传输中的JITTER(SOC芯片自身的JITTER是无能为力的)。那位大侠妄言让DAC自己用个时钟就能解决所有问题,他显然忘了数字音频最重要的因素之一:同步!

很多人迷信PCHIFI,都是因为了解不够,当你深入了解后,你才知道PCHIFI的“血泪史”

俺也请你们这些PCHIFI崇拜者解释一个现象:俺用的是创新1212M声卡,使用数字输出到外置DAC时,明显比板载声卡的数字输出要强很多,这咋回事?你们不是说数字输出都一样的吗?

看来花大钱买好声卡的人真是脑子进水了


你用的DAC的时钟重建是DIG IN还是INTERNAL CLOCK?[s:14] [s:97] [s:30]
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发表于 2010-12-15 14:34 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 饿虎扑食 于 2010-12-15 14:29 发表


你用的DAC的时钟重建是DIG IN还是INTERNAL CLOCK?[s:14] [s:97] [s:30]


9001输入,内部没有时钟,你说算什么。
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发表于 2010-12-15 14:37 | 显示全部楼层
我在112楼给的那个链接里,创新的数字输出惨不忍睹啊。[s:14] [s:97] [s:30] 甚至比不上板载声卡!如果顺溜的DAC是用的DIG IN方式,那很容易理解呀,PT80里有不同声卡的数字输出质量的比较呢。[s:14] [s:14] [s:14]
不明白的是,创新的声卡历来喜欢画蛇添足,不知道顺溜为何喜欢用创新呢?[s:14] [s:97] [s:30] 耳朵收货?我一直认为花大钱买创新来听音乐的人,确实有脑子进水的可能。打游戏还差不多。[s:98] [s:8] [s:8] [s:8]

哈,等我攒够了钱,我一定会怀揣银行卡去试听那台著名的DAC1u的。[s:14] [s:97] [s:30]

[ 本帖最后由 饿虎扑食 于 2010-12-15 14:48 编辑 ]
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发表于 2010-12-15 15:17 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 饿虎扑食 于 2010-12-15 14:37 发表
我在112楼给的那个链接里,创新的数字输出惨不忍睹啊。[s:14] [s:97] [s:30] 甚至比不上板载声卡!如果顺溜的DAC是用的DIG IN方式,那很容易理解呀,PT80里有不同声卡的数字输出质量的比较呢。[s:14] [s:14] [s:14]  ...


说创新专业卡的数字输出比还比不了板载,有点雷人。以RMAA就能下结论,创新和AP都该关门了[s:41]

先不管数字输出谁好,你还是承认数字输出有好有坏吧?什么因素决定了数字输出的好坏呢?

不要老想着DAC内建时钟,很多DAC内部的时钟是给PLL用的,不是直接作为时钟源的!你别跟那位“大侠”一个思维好不好。

多了解点DAC结构和原理,尤其是了解DIR芯片的原理,你就不会老提什么内建时钟了[s:14]
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