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[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

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 楼主| 发表于 2003-12-2 01:10 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

你理解错了,ruf那张图表示的是JITTER的影响,本来就没有误码啊,激动什么
最初由 mgdizhi 发表
[B]你这张图也是错误了,传输到解码芯片的数据只是010101,就象有一个人在电话里读一个电话号码一样,你认为他哪一个数字读慢的一点,难道你就记错他读的那个电话号码了吗?
读慢一点解码芯片就认为出错了吗?[/B]
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 楼主| 发表于 2003-12-2 01:15 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

有人比我还红卫兵啊。哈哈~~~
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发表于 2003-12-2 11:04 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 ruf 发表
[B][QUOTE]最初由 yxiao 发表
[B]ruf 兄的观点我基本赞成,但老兄何以不能同意CD误码和纠错同时也是导致JITTER的原因?纠错算法导致的后果与转盘线速变化是一致的呵,而且可能影响要更为严重呵。

另外,老兄... [/B]
是呵,好久没有“吵架”了:D:D
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发表于 2003-12-2 11:13 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 mgdizhi 发表
[B][QUOTE]最初由 ruf 发表
[B]小鬼头兄,那个图是有些问题,它把jitter画大了些,jitter决不会影响数据,我重画一下:

[code]
正常:
_____-----_____-----_____-----_____-----_____-----

有jitter的... [/B]
严格说来,应当说两张图都有一点问题,从示意的角度,我反而觉得第一张更好一点。

你问读慢一点解码芯片就认为出错了吗? 是的,如果用在电脑软件上是没有任何问题;如果是DAC,解码芯片就会有点“手忙脚乱”,这就是所谓JITTER;如果再慢一点,就要用补偿算法,因为解码芯片能容忍的“忙乱”是有限度的,不能“乱了阵脚”,那样就会出怪声了。
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发表于 2003-12-2 12:27 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

[QUOTE]最初由 doglan 发表
[B]你理解错了,ruf那张图表示的是JITTER的影响,本来就没有误码啊,激动什么

[QUOTE]最初由 mgdizhi 发表
不超过误差就是Jitter?我认为那是根本就没有根据的。
原因非常简单:CD上的坑道信息,是经过编码的。在光头读出坑道信息后,其数据要从14bit编码转变为8bit编码,只要在14bit编码解码前没有因为坑道长度误差导致误码,那么得到的8bit编码根本就不会残留任何14bit编码中的误差。
而且这个8bit数据仍然不是最终结果,因为光盘纠错策略是把一个扇区的数据打散、交错排列在光盘上的,因此数据还要进行重组,这中间必然有存储芯片进行缓冲。因此碟片上的轨道长度误差只要不造成误码,对于CD机的最终数码输出就不会有影响。
正如上面那篇文章说的,会导致CD机输出Jitter的, 是CD机本身的设计方法、晶振精度。所以不同的CD机之间,确实也存在着由于品质不同导致的Jitter差异。但这个Jitter并不是CD盘片能导致的,CD盘片能决定的,只有误码率这项。
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发表于 2003-12-2 12:45 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

[B]
最初由 ruf 发表
[B]你问读慢一点解码芯片就认为出错了吗? 是的,如果用在电脑软件上是没有任何问题;如果是DAC,解码芯片就会有点“手忙脚乱”,这就是所谓JITTER;如果再慢一点,就要用补偿算法,因为解码芯片能容忍的“忙乱”是有限度的,不能“乱了阵脚”,那样就会出怪声了。
[/B]
我给你解释什么叫“手忙脚乱”
CD的读取一样要经过缓存才传输给解码芯片,但是CD不同于电脑的就是,如果电脑读取出现问题时间过长,就会等待,但是CD机不能象暂停一样的播放,所以在读取信号出现问题,就会准许出现错误码,这时其实CD的数据已经是错误的了比如:
10101010变成
10101110中间已经有一位数据出现错误,这和JITTER没有关系。
但是正常的CD基本上不可能出现这种问题,如果有那只是这张CD本身是非合格品或者是划伤了或者打孔打到数据上等等,我们只能说这张CD已经报废了,如果是你买正版的CD的话是可以要求更换的。
CD工厂的QC部门规定读取出现错误的CD的比例不能超过0.1%否则这一批的CD都要报废。
所以再没有认识CD的标准和CD的生产之前不要再乱信那些高档设备生产商写出的公关文章了。
香港弦声音响
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发表于 2003-12-2 12:51 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

◆何谓Jitter值?

它是指在刻录CD母盘或者CD-R碟片时的Pit(激光照射到的地方)及Land(激光未照射到的地方)的长度与基准长度之间的偏差值(时间轴·回转方向的波动)、它的表示单位是「ns」。红皮书规定Jitter值必须在35ns以下。
Jitter值越低则刻录品质越好、对于播放(读取)机而言就是易读的碟片。

看完这里,我相信大家已经明白Jitter在CD中的作用的吧?他只是CD红皮书的一个标准大家按照这个标准来确定孔洞的位置长度,和数字信号没有任何关系。只是Jitter的误差越小这张CD越好读。

没想到在科学这么发达,同时使用了数码这么一个精确的时代,伪科学依然到处传播。
关于Jitter对CD音质的影响,网上的文章多如牛毛,总结他们的理论就是孔侗的位置的不完全精确导致数字信号的波形变化造成CD音质的变化。
但是事实上有一个问题是他们从来不去也不敢去讨论的问题,实际上正版CD的制造厂家制造的CD也是基于CD-R刻录相同原理的方法,就是电脑读取硬盘中的数据,然后再一个孔洞一个孔洞的刻在CD母盘上的,同样存在着Jitter,而且关于Jitter的标准并没有统一的国际标准,而是每一个制造CD生产设备的工厂都有自己的标准,也就是说不同工厂生产出来的正版CD它的Jitter相差很远,既然这样那么就是说没有一个完全标准的Jitter值,那么所谓有的CD机花了大价钱纠正Jitter问题岂不就是无稽之谈?
既然正版的CD遗一样存在着Jitter而且没人知道它的Jitter是好是坏,那么怎么能说翻版CD的Jitter就对音质产生了错误的影响了呢?
我相信这篇话有点难理解,但是我希望有脑子的网友去认真的读出这篇文章的道理,也就不会再受到奸商的蒙蔽了。

扯远了,本文是关于CD转盘引发的讨论。所以问题应该是CD转盘的震动会不会影响解码芯片的工作?简单打个比方就是因为CPU会不会因为风扇的转动造成的震动而运算出错?如果答案是否定的,那么为什么要把一件东西分开两件生产?
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发表于 2003-12-2 15:26 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

关于错码的形成,可能没学过数字电路的不太了解,它是这样的:
数字电路出来数据都需要在处理器前面加一个锁存器,锁存器相当于内存,可以暂存数据,就是为了消除数据传送的延迟的,因为处理器不能自个处理,它需要知道数据来没来,来了才处理,没来就插入一个等待时钟,所以处理器一直在工作,没有事干就只是在做无用功。数据传送是通过时钟脉冲控制的,如果在设计的时间内数据没来,那么根据电路的设计,要么就认为是个1。要么就认为是个0,如果本来来的是个1,但没即时来,电路自己认为是0,那么就产生错码了,后面的数据就出错了。但是这个问题并不难解决,提高电路的处理时钟,或者多增加等待的时间,就可以完全消除这种错误,这就是在消除Jitter。

光头首先读取光盘,光盘的结构调制了光信号,这样的信号转换为电信号后,就成为一种波,对于这样的波,恒线速度的波频率是一定的,但幅度不等,而恒定角速度的,波的频率是变化的,而幅度也不等,但是电路只需要判定幅度大小就行了,这和调频的调频波意义是完全不同的。假如幅度大的理解为1,而幅度小的理解为0,这样光盘的信息就转变为0和1了。这个0、1信号经过缓存和reclock就是rf信号。所以cd机器可以改变为vcd,vcd解码版就是提取了这个rf信号。

单线解码版只使用了rf信号,因为时钟信号它自己重新增加了,而非单线解码板需要取时钟信号,可以看出单线解码板它不需要和转盘同步。那意思是处理光头出来的信号的那块集成电路不需要时钟信号吗,非也,它的时钟信号,大多数情况,就我知道的,都是dsp提供的。但是注意,单线解码板和cd机时钟是完全独立运作的,这个实现来源于dsp的缓存,所以单线解码板都有明显的延时,就是你关了cd机,而电视机现实的图象消失明显更慢,眼睛都看的出来。

大概知道这个原理后,大家就清楚光头读取光盘得到一个调制信号,根本就不是数字信号,所以根本就谈不上什么jetter。它只是一个非周期非等幅的波,而对于这个波的要求就是幅度不能太弱,弱的话,电路就不知道是0还是1,所以转盘部分的毛病都是光头老化或者主轴根本就不转,从来没听说那个的驱动器是转速不均匀造成的,录像机才是,你碰碰那个飞盘,超大的飞盘,可是轻轻一碰,图象声音就失真了。而要读取光盘里面这么微小的东西,转盘的飞盘却还没有收录机的大?这个就是01的优势,不然数字怎么这么翘?高音质的东西怎么轻易到了我们身边,因为数字降低了整个成本,你去看看家用录像机的机芯,哈哈,你天价转盘的机芯算什么?很能比好看是没那么好看。

而痛苦的是AD和DA转换无论如何是无法避免失真的,原来那个波形根本就不存在了,我们只能重建一个无限接近原来那个波,唯物论说,世界上没有一个东西是一模一样的。

现在音响界的研究方向是怎么还原出更接近的波形,而不是研究怎么防止01出错的问题,试问现在的新音频格式,那个是去采取怎么去减少误码而开发的(j在数字领域只能造成误码)?硬件想改变的也只是AD/DA使用的时钟的j的精度,而不是转盘读取数据的精度。

数字电路出来这么多年了,你怀疑它处理01的准确性吗?
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发表于 2003-12-2 15:29 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

而如果影音质的还是时基问题,那还是得靠增加缓存容量、提高晶振及PLL精度来解决问题(但这些措施所增加的成本是不多的)。天价转盘制造商之所以要强调机械上的“功夫”,恐怕是想继续用模拟时代取得的技术和“秘方”来赚钱。
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发表于 2003-12-2 22:12 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

刊载的网站恰好也是RUF兄所转英文文章曾提及到的http://www.digido.com/

原文如下:
  http://www.digido.com/index/pmod ... /searchQuery=jitter
      

EVERYTHING YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT JITTER BUT WERE AFRAID TO ASK

by Bob Katz

10/28/02. I hesitate to remove this older article from our website, as it is still informative, but I highly recommend that those interested in the latest word on this subject please read the chapter on Jitter in my new book. Some questions that this previous article has raised have been clarified in our letters section, and of course are covered much better in the book.

--------

Jitter is so misunderstood among recording engineers and audiophiles that we have decided to devote a Section to the topic. All digital devices that have an input and an output can add jitter to the signal path. For example, Digital Domain&#39s FCN-1 Format Converter adds a small amount of jitter (around 200 ps RMS) to the digital audio signal path. Is this good? Is it bad? What sonic difference does it make? We will attempt to answer these--and other important--questions in this Section.

What is Jitter?
Jitter is time-base error. It is caused by varying time delays in the circuit paths from component to component in the signal path. The two most common causes of jitter are poorly-designed Phase Locked Loops (PLL&#39s) and waveform distortion due to mismatched impedances and/or reflections in the signal path.

Here is how waveform distortion can cause time-base distortion:



The top waveform represents a theoretically perfect digital signal. Its value is 101010, occuring at equal slices of time, represented by the equally-spaced dashed vertical lines. When the first waveform passes through long cables of incorrect impedance, or when a source impedance is incorrectly matched at the load, the square wave can become rounded, fast risetimes become slow, also reflections in the cable can cause misinterpretation of the actual zero crossing point of the waveform. The second waveform shows some of the ways the first might change; depending on the severity of the mismatch you might see a triangle wave, a squarewave with ringing, or simply rounded edges. Note that the new transitions (measured at the Zero Line) in the second waveform occur at unequal slices of time. Even so, the numeric interpretation of the second waveform is still 101010! There would have to be very severe waveform distortion for the value of the new waveform to be misinterpreted, which usually shows up as audible errors--clicks or tics in the sound. If you hear tics, then you really have something to worry about.

If the numeric value of the waveform is unchanged, why should we be concerned? Let&#39s rephrase the question: "when (not why) should we become concerned?" The answer is "hardly ever". The only effect of timebase distortion is in the listening; as far as it can be proved, it has no effect on the dubbing of tapes or any digital to digital transfer (as long as the jitter is low enough to permit the data to be read. High jitter may result in clicks or glitches as the circuit cuts in and out). A typical D to A converter derives its system clock (the clock that controls the sample and hold circuit) from the incoming digital signal. If that clock is not stable, then the conversions from digital to analog will not occur at the correct moments in time. The audible effect of this jitter is a possible loss of low level resolution caused by added noise, spurious (phantom) tones, or distortion added to the signal.

A properly dithered 16-bit recording can have over 120 dB of dynamic range; a D to A converter with a jittery clock can deteriorate the audible dynamic range to 100 dB or less, depending on the severity of the jitter. I have performed listening experiments on purist, audiophile-quality musical source material recorded with a 20-bit accurate A/D converter (dithered to 16 bits within the A/D). The sonic results of passing this signal through processors that truncate the signal at -110, -105, or -96 dB are: increased "grain" in the image, instruments losing their sharp edges and focus; reduced soundstage width; apparent loss of level causing the listener to want to turn up the monitor level, even though high level signals are reproduced at unity gain. Contrary to intuition, you can hear these effects without having to turn up the listening volume beyond normal (illustrating that low-level ambience cues are very important to the quality of reproduction). Similar degradation has been observed when jitter is present. Nevertheless, the loss due to jitter is subtle, and primarily audible with the highest-grade audiophile D/A converters.

Jitter And the AES/EBU Interface

The AES/EBU (and S/PDIF) interface carries an embedded clock signal. The designers of the interface did not anticipate that it could cause a subtle amount of jitter due to the nature of the preamble in the AES/EBU signal. The result is a small amount of program-dependent jitter which often sounds like an intermodulation, a high-frequency edge added to the music. To minimize this effect in the listening, use a D/A converter with a high degree of internal jitter reduction. An external jitter reduction device that removes the subcode signal (containing time of day, start IDs, etc.) also helps.

The SDIF-2 (Sony Digital Interface-2) uses a separate cable for the clock signal, and thus is not susceptible to program-dependent jitter. However, the quality of the PLL used to detect an SDIF-2 wordclock is still important to low jitter. It is much easier to build a low-jitter PLL for a wordclock signal than for an AES/EBU signal.

Is Jitter Cumulative? What About My Dubs?
Consider a recording chain consisting of an A to D Converter, followed by the FCN-1, feeding a DAT machine, and finally a D to A Converter. During the recording, the jitter you will hear is dependent on the ability of the last PLL in the chain (in the D to A) to reduce the cumulative jitter of the preceding elements in the chain. The time-base error in the D to A is a complex aggregate of the timebase errors of all the preceding devices, including their ability to reject incoming jitter, plus the D to A&#39s ability to reject any jitter coming into it. During the recording, there are 3 Phase Locked Loops in the chain: in the FCN-1, the recorder, and the D to A converter. Each PLL has its own characteristics; many good PLLs actually reduce incoming jitter; others have a high residual jitter. It is likely that during playback, you will hear far less jitter (better low level resolution, clearer highs) because there is only one PLL in the digital chain, between the playback deck and the D to A. In other words, the playback will sound better than the sound monitored while recording!

Jitter and A to D Converters
The A to D Converter is one of the most critical digital audio components susceptible to jitter, particularly converters putting out long word lengths (e.g. 20-bits). The master clock that drives an A/D converter must be very stable. A jittery master clock in an A/D converter can cause irrevocable distortion and/or noise which cannot be cancelled out or eliminated at further stages in the chain. A/D&#39s can run on internal or external sync. On internal sync, the A/D is running from a master crystal oscillator. On external sync, the A/D&#39s master clock is driven by a PLL, which is likely to have higher remnant jitter than the crystal clock. That is why I recommend running an A/D converter on internal clock wherever possible, unless you are synchronizing an A/D to video or to another A/D (in a multichannel setup). If you must use external sync, use the most stable external source possible (preferably video or wordclock over AES/EBU), and try to ensure that the A/D&#39s designer used an ultra-stable PLL.

Jitter and DSP-based Processors
Most DSP-based software acts as a "state machine". In other words, the output result on a sample by sample basis is entirely predictable based on a table of values of the incoming samples. The regularity (or irregularity) of the incoming clock has no effect on the output data. If the system&#39s phase locked loops can follow the changes, you can vary the clock rapidly or slowly, and store the data on a DAT, and the net result will be the same data.

Exceptions to "state-based" DSP processes include Asynchronous Sample Rate Converters, which are able to follow variations in incoming sample rate, and produce a new outgoing sample rate. Such devices are not "state-machines", and jitter on the input may affect the value of the data on the output. I can imagine other DSP processes that use "time" as a variable, but these are so rare that most normal DSP processes (gain changing, equalization, limiting, compression, etcetera) can be considered entirely to be state machines.

Therefore, as far as the integrity of the data is concerned, I have no problems using a chain of jittery (or non-jittery) digital devices to process digital audio, as long as the digital device has a high integrity of DSP coding (passes the "audio transparency" test).

Why are plug-in computer cards so jittery? Does this affect my work with the cards?


Most computer-based digital audio cards have quite high jitter, which makes listening through them a variable experience. It is very difficult to design a computer-based card with a clean clock---due to ground and power contamination and the proximity of other clocks on the computer&#39s motherboard. The listener may leap to a conclusion that a certain DSP-based processor reduces soundstage width and depth, low level resolution, and other symptoms, when in reality the problem is related to a jittery phase-locked loop in the processor input, not to the DSP process itself. Therefore, always make delicate sonic judgments of DSP processors under low jitter conditions, which means placing high-quality jitter reduction units throughout the signal chain, particularly in front of (and within) the D/A converter. Sonic Solutions&#39s new USP system has very low jitter because its clocks are created in isolated and well-designed external I/O boxes.

Jitter and Digital Copies...The Key is in the Playback...not in the transfer.
Many well-known devices have high jitter on their outputs, especially DAT machines. However, for most digital to digital transfers, jitter is most likely irrelevant to the final result. I said "most likely" because a good scientist always leaves a little room for doubt in the face of empirical (listening) evidence, and I have discovered certain audible exceptions (see below). Until we are able to measure jitter with widely-available high-resolution measuring equipment, and until we can correlate jitter measurements adequately against sonic results, I will leave some room for doubt.

Playback from a DAT recorder usually sounds better than the recording, because there is less jitter. Remember, a DAT machine on playback puts out numbers from an internal RAM buffer memory, locked to its internal crystal clock. A DAT machine that is recording (from its digital input) is locked to the source via its (relatively jittery) Phase Locked Loop. As the figure above illustrates, the numbers still get recorded correctly on tape, although their timebase was jittery while going in. Nevertheless, on playback, that time base error becomes irrelevant, for the numbers are reclocked by the DAT machine! I have not seen evidence that jitter is cumulative on multiple digital dubs. In fact, a Compact Disc made from a DAT master usually sounds better than the DAT...because a CD usually plays back more stably than a DAT machine. The fact that a dub can sound better than the original is certainly a tough concept to believe, but it is one key to understanding the strange phenomenom called Digital Audio.

It&#39s unnerving to hear a dub that sounds sound different from the original, so I&#39ve performed some tests to try to see if jitter is accumulated. I think I&#39ve proved with reasonable satisfaction, that under most conditions jitter is not accumulated on multiple dubs, and that passing jittery sources through a storage medium (such as hard disk) results in a very non-jittery result (e.g., recorded CDR).

Here are two tests I have made (this is far from a complete list):

Test #1. I produced a 99th-generation versus 1st-generation audio test on Chesky Records&#39 first Test CD. If jitter were accumulated on subsequent dubs, then the 99th generation would sound pretty bad, right? Well, most people listening to this CD can&#39t tell the difference and there is room for doubt that there is a difference. It&#39s pretty hard to refute a 99th generation listening test!

Test #2. I built a custom clock generator and put it in a DAT machine. On purpose, I increased the jitter of that clock generator to the point that a dubbing DAT machine almost could not lock to the signal from the jittery souce DAT. The sound coming out of the D/A converter of the dubbing DAT was entirely distorted, completely unlistenable. However, when played back, the dub had no audible distortion at all!

These are two scientifically-created proofs of an already well-understood digital "axiom", that the process of loading and storing digital data onto a storage medium effectively (or virtually) cancels the audible jitter coming in.

Does copying to hard disk deteriorate the sound of the source?


If you copy from a jittery source to a hard disk-recorder and later create a CDR from that hard disk, will this result in a jittery CDR? I cannot reach this conclusion based on personal listening experience. In most cases, the final CDR sounds better than the source, as auditioned direct off the hard disk! I must admit it is frustrating to listen to "degraded" sources and not really know how it is going to sound until you play back the final CDR.

Please note that I perform all my listening tests at Digital Domain through the same D/A converter, and that converter is preceded by an extremely powerful jitter-reduction device. Surprisingly, I can still hear some variation in source quality, depending on whether I am listening to hard disk, CDR, 20-bit tape, or DAT. The ear is an incredibly powerful "jitter detector"!


Quiz: Is it all right to make a digital chain of two or more DAT machines in record? The answer: During record you may hear a subtle loss of resolution due to increased jitter. However, the cumulative jitter in the chain will be reduced on playback. But we advise against chaining machines; it is safer to use a distribution amplifier (like the FCN-1) to feed multiple machines, because if one machine or a cable fails, the failure will not be passed on to another machine in line.

Can Compact Discs contain jitter?
When I started in this business, I was skeptical that there could be sonic differences between CDs that demonstrably contained the same data. But over time, I have learned to hear the subtle (but important) sonic differences between jittery (and less jittery) CDs. What started me on this quest was that CD pressings often sounded deteriorated (soundstage width, depth, resolution, purity of tone, other symptoms) compared to the CDR master from which they were made. Clients were coming to me, musicians with systems ranging from $1000 to $50,000, complaining about sonic differences that by traditional scientific theory should not exist. But the closer you look at the phenomenon of jitter, the more you realize that even minute amounts of jitter are audible, even through the FIFO (First in, First Out) buffer built into every CD player.

CDRs recorded on different types of machines sound different to my ears. An AES-EBU (stand-alone) CD recorder produces inferior-sounding CDs compared to a SCSI-based (computer) CD recorder. This is understandable when you realize that a SCSI-based recorder uses a crystal oscillator master clock. Whenever its buffer gets low, this type of recorder requests data on the SCSI buss from the source computer and thus is not dependent on the stability of the computer&#39s clock. In contrast, a stand-alone CD recorder works exactly like a DAT machine; it slaves its master clock to the jittery incoming clock imbedded in the AES/EBU signal. No matter how effective the recorder&#39s PLL at removing incoming jitter, it can never be as effective as a well-designed crystal clock.

I&#39ve also observed that a 4X-speed SCSI-based CDR copy sounds inferior to a double-speed copy and yet again inferior to a 1X speed copy.

Does a CD copy made from a jittery source sound inferior to one made from a clean source? I don&#39t think so; I think the quality of the copy is solely dependent on clocking and mechanics involved during the transfer. Further research should be done on this question.

David Smith (of Sony Music) was the first to point out to me that power supply design is very important to jitter in a CD player, a CD recorder, or a glass mastering machine. Although the FIFO is supposed to eliminate all the jitter coming in, it doesn&#39t seem to be doing an adequate job. One theory put forth by David is that the crystal oscillator at the output of the FIFO is powered by the same power supply that powers the input of the FIFO. Thus, the variations in loading at the input to the FIFO are microcosmically transmitted to the output of the FIFO through the power supply. Considering the minute amounts of jitter that are detectable by the ear, it is very difficult to design a power supply/grounding system that effectively blocks jitter from critical components. Crystal oscillators and phase locked loops should be powered from independent supplies, perhaps even battery supplies. A lot of research is left to be done; one of the difficulties is finding measurement instruments capable of quantifying very low amounts of jitter. Until we are able to correlate jitter measurements against audibility, the ear remains the final judge. Yet another obstacle to good "anti-jitter" engineering design is engineers who don&#39t (or won&#39t) listen. The proof is there before your ears!

David Smith also discovered that inserting a reclocking device during glass mastering definitely improves the sound of the CD pressing. Correlary question: If you use a good reclocking device on the final transfer to Glass Master, does this cancel out any jitter of previous source or source(s) that were used in the pre-production of the 1630? Answer: We&#39re not sure yet!

Listening tests: I have participated in a number of blind (and double-blind) listening tests that clearly indicate that a CD which is pressed from a "jittery" source sounds worse than one made from a less jittery source? In one test, a CD plant pressed a number of test CDs, simply marked "A" or "B". No one outside of the plant knew which was "A" and which "B". All listeners preferred the pressing marked "A", as closer to the master, and sonically superior to "B". Not to prolong the suspense, disc "A" was glass mastered from PCM-1630, disc "B" from a CDR.

Attention CD Plants---a New Solution to the Jitter Problem from Sony: In response to pressure from its musical clients, and recognizing that jitter really is a problem, Sony Corporation has decided to improve on the quality of glass mastering. The result is a new system called (appropriately) The Ultimate Cutter. The system can be retrofitted to any CD plant&#39s Glass Mastering system for approximately $100,000. The Ultimate Cutter contains 2 gigabytes of flash RAM, and a very stable clock. It is designed to eliminate the multiple interfering clocks and mechanical irregularities of traditional systems using 1630, Exabyte, or CD ROM sources. First the data is transferred to the cutter&#39s RAM from the CD Master; then all interfering sources may be shut down, and a glass master cut with the stable clock directly from RAM. This system is currently under test, and I look forward to hearing the sonic results.

Can Jitter in a Chain be Erased or Reduced?
The answer, thankfully, is "yes". Several of the advanced D to A converters now available to consumers contain jitter reduction circuits. Some of them use a frequency-controlled crystal oscillator to average the moment to moment variations in the source. In essence, the clock driving the D/A becomes a stable crystal, immune to the pico- or nano-second time-base variations of jittery sources. This is especially important to professionals, who have to evaluate the digital audio during recording, perhaps at the end of a chain of several Phase Locked Loops. Someday all D to A converters will incorporate very effective jitter-reduction circuits.

Good Jitter vs. Bad Jitter
The amount of jitter is defined by how far the time is drifting. Original estimates of acceptable jitter in A/D and D/A converters were around 100 to 200 picoseconds (pS). However, research into oversampling converters revealed that jitter below 10 pS is highly desirable. For D/A converters, the amount of jitter is actually less important than the type of jitter, for some types of jitter are audibly more benign than others (I repeat: jitter does not affect D-D dubs, it only affects the D to A converter in the listening chain).

There are three different "types" of jitter:

The variations in the time base which are defined as jitter are regular and periodic (possibly sinusoidal)
The variations are random (incoherent, white noise)
The variations are related to the digital audio signal
Jitter can also be a combination of the above three.

Periodic fluctuations in the time base (#1 above) can cause spurious tones to appear at low levels, blocking our ability to hear critical ambient decay and thus truncating the dynamic range of the reproduction. Often this type of jitter is caused by clock leakage. It is analogous to scrape flutter in analog recorders.

On the other hand, Gaussian, or random jitter (#2 above, usually caused by a well-behaved Phase Locked Loop wandering randomly around the nominal clock frequency) is the least audible type. In addition to adding some additional noise at high frequencies, gaussian jitter adds a small perfume of hiss at the lowest levels, which may or may not be audible, and may or may not mask low level musical material. Sometimes, this type of jitter puts a "veil" on the sound. This veiling is not permanent (unlike the effects of dither, which are generally permanent), and will go away with a proper reclocking circuit into the D/A converter.

Finally, timing variations related to the digital audio signal (#3 above) add a kind of intermodulation distortion that can sound quite ugly.

More to Come: Jitter bibliography and credits. Clarifications of some apparent contradictions in the above essay.

Our letters section currently covers reader letters and some answers to these questions:

Digital Patchbays, Good or Bad?

What does "better sound"mean in the context of jitter?

Why do CDRs show jitter differences while DATs do not?

While you&#39re waiting for "The Jitter Bible", I urge you to listen, listen, listen, and see if you hear the problems of jitter in your audio systems, where and when they seem to occur.


Copyright Notice and Linking permission: These HTML documents are Copyright 1995-2003, Digital Domain, Inc. The following are trademarks of Digital Domain, Inc.: Digital Domain, Digi-nary . These documents may not be reproduced in any manner without the permission of the copyright owner. We invite the audio and music community to link to this web site, which will be periodically revised. This page last revised June 2003.
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发表于 2003-12-2 23:45 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

此文标题我译作《你很想全部了解但又怕别人问起的JITTER》

由于这几天我较忙,这篇长文我只粗略看了几眼,我就已认为:讲JITTER实在讲得太好了!既有理论、又有实践,既全面、又深刻,分析合理,论述严谨。想要了解有关JITTER的,差不多都述及了。若有兄弟愿意把他全部翻译后贴出来,相信能帮助一些网友增进知识、澄清和了解很多有关问题。

此段解释我认为就是关键:

David Smith (of Sony Music) was the first to point out to me that power supply design is very important to jitter in a CD player, a CD recorder, or a glass mastering machine. Although the FIFO is supposed to eliminate all the jitter coming in, it doesn&#39t seem to be doing an adequate job. One theory put forth by David is that the crystal oscillator at the output of the FIFO is powered by the same power supply that powers the input of the FIFO. Thus, the variations in loading at the input to the FIFO are microcosmically transmitted to the output of the FIFO through the power supply. Considering the minute amounts of jitter that are detectable by the ear, it is very difficult to design a power supply/grounding system that effectively blocks jitter from critical components. Crystal oscillators and phase locked loops should be powered from independent supplies, perhaps even battery supplies. A lot of research is left to be done; one of the difficulties is finding measurement instruments capable of quantifying very low amounts of jitter. Until we are able to correlate jitter measurements against audibility, the ear remains the final judge. Yet another obstacle to good "anti-jitter" engineering design is engineers who don&#39t (or won&#39t) listen. The proof is there before your ears!

手头无辞典、新换电脑未装有翻译软件,只好粗译一下(个别词我不认识呀,呵呵):

Sony Music公司的David Smith 是第一个向我指出有关CD机、a glass mastering machine(译作数码混音器材?)其电源对JITTER的重要性。尽管FIFO(先入先出数字电路)是假定用于消除所有由信号带进来的JITTER,但实际上并不能完全消除(或直译为:实际上看起来它并没有做足够的工作)。David 的理论是,FIFO输出部分所用的晶体振荡器与FIFO输入部分使用同一个电源,这样输入部分的负载变化有一些会通过电源传送到输出部分。

少量的JITTER能被人耳所察觉,但难以通过设计好的电源供应、接地系统、使用好的零件来有效消除。晶体振荡器和锁相环电路应当由独立的电源供电,甚至要使用电池。很多研究证实:其中一个困难在于难以找到仪器可以测量这么低的JITTER。直到我们能从音响性方面校正测量之前,还得靠人耳来判断。——哈哈,这点与我小鬼头的“未可知论”/渴望有音质检测器的想法真相似——http://www.jd-bbs.com/showthread ... 9%B1%BE%D2%F4%CF%EC

(最后两句不会译,WUWU)


这篇文章还有很多有用的信息,,大家还可以细看。

比如:

第二段讲到——经过任何数字器件都会增加JITTER。

第三段(JITERR是什么)讲到——JITTER是时期的错误。它由信号通路的器件到器材不同的时延引起的。它有两个导致产生的普遍原因,一个是设计差的PLL锁相环电路,另一个是信号传输中由于阻抗失配产生反射而引入到信号中。(不过小鬼头近段时间在鬼佬论坛上修炼,知道应该还有其它包括电源的变动、EMI、RFI、线路引线长等因素会导致JITTER增加)

文章后半段所讲其所作的测试颇有趣,也是对他所称“Jitter and Digital Copies...The Key is in the Playback...not in the transfer.
”(JITTER与数字复制,关键在回放,不是在复制)的一个证据

测试1——用Chesky录音公司的测试CD进行对比试验,第1代对第99代(应是指复制的),经过聆听,大部分听不出差别。

测试2——用自制的时钟发生器装在DAT上,特意将JITTER搞大,连信号都几乎锁不住。复制时听音,声音糟糕到不能听。但将复制出来的东西拿出来试听,竟听不出任何失真!


还有下面这一段他的试听经验证实”转盘有用论”——用同一台强力降JITTER的DA转换器听音,仍能听出不同音源声音的不同——他的结论是“人耳是难以置信的强力JITTER检测器!”
Please note that I perform all my listening tests at Digital Domain through the same D/A converter, and that converter is preceded by an extremely powerful jitter-reduction device. Surprisingly, I can still hear some variation in source quality, depending on whether I am listening to hard disk, CDR, 20-bit tape, or DAT. The ear is an incredibly powerful "jitter detector"!
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发表于 2003-12-3 00:20 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 mgdizhi 发表
[B]在关于楼上的ruf 的那段文章纯属“扯淡”

《CDR的时基不如压制的原版盘的来得精准。》  
错,,,正版母盘和CD-R的制作方法几乎一样。

《你从CD抓轨得到的数据和CD上一样,但是为什么刻出的CD音质不完全相同?.. [/B]

我不想一条一条的和你争辩,虽然你的回复也存在问题,但那不是关键。你的观点是,CDROM的信号输出只受CDROM自身的时序电路的影响,而和盘片质量没有影响(假设没有导致误码);而现在主流观点是,CDROM的信号输出和盘片质量是有关系的,一个是通过时基误差、一个是通过对电源的污染,更悬的我们就不讨论了。

补充一个有意思的话题,在老外的一个讨论组里(comp.publish.cdrom.hardware),一个老外说,“我发现,越高档的转盘上,原版盘和刻录盘的音质差距就越明显,我简直怀疑这是生产厂家故意设计的缺陷,让高档转盘放不好D盘……”

原版盘和刻录盘的音质差距,只怕不是你说得那样,只是发烧友的神经质吧。
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发表于 2003-12-3 00:27 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 ruf 发表
[B][补充一个有意思的话题,在老外的一个讨论组里(comp.publish.cdrom.hardware) [/B]

原来你喜欢跑这种地方。。。好,私中有公:D :p
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发表于 2003-12-3 00:30 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 小鬼头_ 发表
[B]此文标题我译作《你很想全部了解但又怕别人问起的JITTER》

由于这几天我较忙,这篇长文我只粗略看了几眼,我就已认为:讲JITTER实在讲得太好了!既有理论、又有实践,既全面、又深刻,分析合理,论述严谨。想要了... [/B]

收到,辛苦了!

我以前似乎读过,特别是那个复制99次的实验,有些印象,当时记得的结论就是复制无损和jitter有害,不过对电源污染的原理部分,没怎么看明白。

今天太晚了,我要回家休息啦,明天看……
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发表于 2003-12-3 00:36 | 显示全部楼层

[求助] 关于CD转盘我引发的讨论

最初由 mgdizhi 发表
[B扯远了,本文是关于CD转盘引发的讨论。所以问题应该是CD转盘的震动会不会影响解码芯片的工作?简单打个比方就是因为CPU会不会因为风扇的转动造成的震动而运算出错?如果答案是否定的,那么为什么要把一件东西分开两件生产?
[/B]

问题没错,但比方打错了,答案也错了,呵呵。
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