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[线材] 从一个医学上的实例,谈“双盲实验”的可笑之处【4月6日】10.27最后更新

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发表于 2018-4-1 11:31 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

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本帖最后由 辽阳高青 于 2018-4-6 10:29 编辑

来自网络,为了简明扼要,删掉部分无关章节,如下
【原文】
    双盲实验是科研人员在对研制的新药进行测试时用的一种方法。在这种双盲实验中,作为实验对象的病人和作为实验参与者(或观察者)的医务人员都不知道(双盲)谁被给予了新药,谁被给予了“宽心丸”。这样,医务人员对病人服药以及服“宽心丸”这两种结果的观察就会更加客观,因而对新药实际效果的解释也就会更准确、更科学。这种“双盲”的实验设计能使研究人员进一步从其他一些变量中孤立出新药的效果来。
【评语】
    看看,先设计了一个“双盲”的试验办法,又谈为什么要“双盲”?因为要防止“心理作用”的干扰得出的不正确的结论,最后给这种“双盲实验”带了个科学的高帽。
【原文】
    在新药效果实验中,实验人员知道,实验组所服用的是这种新药,而控制组服用的是“宽心丸”。这种清楚往往会导致实验人员在实验中自觉不自觉地去“发现”或者“观望”新药具有某种“效果”,就像教师自觉不自觉地“看到”那些学生“特别聪明”一样。在新药效果实验中,它会导致实验人员自觉不自觉地“看到”实验组的病人“病情好转”。
    在上述例子中,为了排除研究者的“期望”对实验过程和结果解释的影响,研究者又进一步设计了一种研究新药效果的“双盲实验”。在这种双盲实验中,作为实验对象的病人和作为实验参与者(或观察者)的医务人员都不知道(双盲)谁被给予了新药,谁被给予了“宽心丸”。这样,医务人员对病人服药以及服“宽心丸”这两种结果的观察就会更加客观,因而对新药实际效果的解释也就会更准确、更科学。这种“双盲”的实验设计能使研究人员进一步从其他一些变量中孤立出新药的效果来。
【评语】
    医院不是有这个“X光”,那个“超”,那个“T”,那个“振”,还有各种体液化验,基因检测,还有临床经验等等,怎么还弄不清药物是不是真的有效?还要排除心理干扰?
    我吓出来一身冷汗,毛骨悚然,我们还敢找医生看病吗?还敢吃药吗?

【4月4日】14.46最后更新
在网上看到一个帖子,忘记链接了,也无从证实它的真实性,内容如下:     
       某战地医院在救治战场下来的伤员,由于战斗激烈,伤员越来越多,很快的医院的镇痛剂就消耗殆尽了,这就造成了有些伤员哀嚎不止。这时,就有一个医护人员“脑洞大开”(不好意思,用了一个现代的网络词),应该叫突发奇想吧,把生理盐水装做镇痛剂给伤员打了下去,出乎意料的是,伤员的疼痛居然减轻了不少
       生理盐水能镇痛吗?如果能镇痛的话,我们何必费劲生产镇痛剂,直接用生理盐水镇痛,不但省劲,省钱还没有镇痛剂的副作用,何乐不为呢?那么问题出现了,镇痛效果来自何处呢?
      用双盲试验的设计者的话来说,这个是“心理作用”,也叫暗示,生理盐水是“安慰剂”,本来是想骗伤员(尽管是善意的,是因为实在是没有着了,才出如此的骗人“下策”),但始料不及的是居然有了效果,绝对出乎医护人员的意外。
       问题来了,既然是生理盐水起了镇痛的作用,那么生理盐水是不是我们骑驴找驴,视而不见的镇痛新药?如果是的话, 是不是我们原来很傻很傻?如果不是,那么心理作用能不能真的治病?            
       回到医学双盲测试上的讨论上来,之所以盲测,就是因为医学双盲测试的设计者认为心理作用巨大,双盲就是要排除心理作用,这样就陷入了一个悖论:就是既然你认为心理作用巨大,那你如何断定,对治疗疾病有效果的一定是所谓的药物而不是你给试验者服用的“安慰剂”呢?
【4月6日】10.27最后更新
       科学实验当然是科学的(这个话听起来怎么感到特别别扭),但具体的科学实验的方法是有针对性的,用错了科学工具,那结论必然是不正确的。
       之所以测试新药要用双盲试验,就是设计者认为暗示的作用是很大的,会干扰试验的结果,暗示有没有作用,有
       如果医生对患者说,这个药对你的病非常有效,结果服用后,非常见效,那你们说如何证明效果是药物而不是心理作用呢?
       但如果对患者说,这个药是我们研制的新药,我们刚刚通过动物试验,现在想在你身上试验一下,看看有没有效果?你们说,试验者会吃吗?吓也吓个半死。
       所以说,为了避免心理作用要患者服用安慰剂,本身就是一种干扰,极端的情况是试验的药物不治病,但安慰剂却让患者的病情好转了。这个就是我前面所说的医学上的双盲测试陷入了两难的悖论。
       怎么设计出最最合理的方法呢?看看我的设计方法
第一种,把患者送入疗养院,同样的环境,同样的食物,一组吃药,一组不吃药,过一定的时间后,上医院检查,吃药不吃药是护士知道的事,医生不知道。
第二种,让两组患者同饮用一种东西,一组加入药物,一组什么都不加
       按道理,第二种最客观,最符合双盲设计者的排除心理干扰、暗示的问题,但是,这里有个法律问题。  



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发表于 2018-4-1 20:11 | 显示全部楼层
研究判断药物的真实疗效,这个科学呀,不可笑。可笑的是许多食疗药甚至中药经过这种科学实验证明其实没什么效果。
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发表于 2018-4-1 22:55 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
初中科学,实验方法中很常用的一种方法就是控制变量法。心理问题与生理问题互相影响现象很普遍。
音联邦
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发表于 2018-4-2 10:59 | 显示全部楼层
心理的作用是非常大啊,难道没看到过,几分钟前还好好的,一听到得了绝症,走路都走不了,本来不知道得绝症还可以多活些时间,知道后很快就不行了。
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发表于 2018-4-2 11:03 | 显示全部楼层
kdpsky 发表于 2018-4-2 10:59
心理的作用是非常大啊,难道没看到过,几分钟前还好好的,一听到得了绝症,走路都走不了,本来不知道得绝症 ...

音响也是一样。
某些人知道这个功放值几十万,嘴里只敢说好听的。
但是一下知道,原来是山寨的,不好听的就什么都敢讲了。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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 楼主| 发表于 2018-4-2 11:29 | 显示全部楼层
dbw啊 发表于 2018-4-2 00:20
一般卖线的都没多少文化,楼主你多琢磨一下,向坛友多学习总有一天会明白的。

      看不懂我的评注吗?
      你是什么文化,就这智商?
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发表于 2018-4-2 14:47 | 显示全部楼层
心情当然影响疗效啊。怒火攻心,心静自然凉。很多药品都是通过人体自身免疫达到效果的。还有很多病是可以自愈的。双盲就是降低心理作用产生的效果。音响也一样,心理情况不同,听音的感受也是不同的。比如你在大悲的时候,听到笑话只能感到厌恶。
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发表于 2018-4-2 17:19 | 显示全部楼层
dbw啊 发表于 2018-4-2 16:26
看了你的点评,才建议你要多学习。

楼主是个天天过愚人节的乐天派,自愚自乐之余,还自愚乐人,是当代活雷锋你不要当真
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发表于 2018-4-2 18:07 | 显示全部楼层
其实大家不必执着,线材有用及无用论者双方谁也无法说服对方。
觉得有用就用上吧,只要让自己听音乐心情愉快。
觉得无用就买点普通电线或者用上铁线也行,这样自己感觉省了几千甚至上万元,这样听着音乐也是很开心的
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发表于 2018-4-2 18:16 | 显示全部楼层
DMD888-3 发表于 2018-4-2 17:19
楼主是个天天过愚人节的乐天派,自愚自乐之余,还自愚乐人,是当代活雷锋你不要当真

犀利、精彩!
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发表于 2018-4-2 18:21 | 显示全部楼层
ou85 发表于 2018-4-2 18:07
其实大家不必执着,线材有用及无用论者双方谁也无法说服对方。
觉得有用就用上吧,只要让自己听音乐心情愉 ...

不要说服,盲听,就好。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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发表于 2018-4-2 18:51 | 显示全部楼层
新药上市前,必须要做临床试验疗效的流程。分组观察,一组用真正的药,一组安慰剂。这已经是标准流程。楼主有什么问题,居然觉得可笑?
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发表于 2018-4-2 18:58 | 显示全部楼层
用安慰剂的一组,起作用的只是心理作用。病人虽自己觉得有效果,也是起有限的安慰作用。楼主拿这个来说事,不会是想反证音响盲听的可笑吧?如果是,我觉得你刚好把论据用反了。
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 楼主| 发表于 2018-4-3 14:07 | 显示全部楼层
【4月3日】14.02最后更新
在网上看到一个帖子,忘记链接了,也无从证实它的真实性,内容如下:     
       某战地医院在救治战场下来的伤员,由于战斗激烈,伤员越来越多,很快的医院的镇痛剂就消耗殆尽了,这就造成了有些伤员哀嚎不止。这时,就有一个医护人员“脑洞大开”(不好意思,用了一个现代的网络词),应该叫突发奇想吧,把生理盐水装做镇痛剂给伤员打了下去,出乎意料的是,伤员的疼痛居然减轻了不少
       生理盐水能镇痛吗?如果能镇痛的话,我们何必费劲生产镇痛剂,直接用生理盐水镇痛,不但省劲,省钱还没有镇痛剂的副作用,何乐不为呢?那么问题出现了,镇痛效果来自何处呢?
      用双盲试验的设计者的话来说,这个是“心理作用”,也叫暗示,生理盐水是“安慰剂”,本来是想骗伤员(尽管是善意的,是因为实在是没有着了,才出如此的骗人“下策”),但始料不及的是居然有了效果,绝对出乎医护人员的意外。
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