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电子、音响里面原来还有论波形面积算失真的

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发表于 2011-4-9 08:20 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

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最近争论jitter的帖子很火啊,分析jitter带来的失真,明明我就贴过人家模拟加入不同形式的jitter后(这里的说的模拟的意思是考虑到实际的jitter形式很难估计,虽然成什么正态分布,所以他们考虑模拟成一种比较简单的形式)实际测量的结果,却被人家说是模拟(计算)的结果,不是测量的结果。
有些人只抓住时钟jitter多少来和人争辩,开口闭口就是时钟50ps的jitter,不知道去考察整个环节的jitter,去有测量结果的网站(stereophile)看吧,哪里有整机做到50ps那么低的jitter!
努力把降低jitter到不影响原定的数字模拟系统最高分辨率(事实是目前因为各种原因还达不到24bit/96kHz的理论精度,从CD出现到现在科技发展了20多年了,还不就是那个样),这是合格的工程技术人员的共识。
有些人说jitter没有厂家提,去AES看看技术论文吧。
最后也搞出一个按面积算失真的,人耳是波形面积分析仪吗?不!
下面两个波形中红色的正半周和绿色的正半周面积一样,负半周也如此,按他们的说法就是,声音听起来一样了。 1.GIF

按我说他们有这个精力,不如去打打那些真正的神棍,例如音响界的量子波导管(JSMR)厉害到可以消除空间的驻波,例如隆宇的DD,还例如TW的joly。更不如去打那些分分钟会骗你家老人家的什么频谱水、保健床、神灯。

(上面红色字体部分有问题,经大家指出特用红色标注)

[ 本帖最后由 hifi3eyes 于 2011-4-9 14:04 编辑 ]
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-4-9 08:27 | 显示全部楼层
说那些jitter只是发烧友在忙活的人可以闭嘴了,jitter在AES上面的结果大概是943项,当然其中有大量重复的文章,但看下来也很不少,去www.aes.org去搜搜看吧。
AES E-Library » The Effects of Sampling Clock Jitter on Nyquist ...
Sampling clock jitter is inevitable in a digital studio environment. This paper
discusses the audio effects of clock jitter on an analog-to-digital ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES Section Meeting Reports: Toronto - May 26, 2009
26 May 2009 ... Morten Lave, CEO and Managing Director of TC Applied Technologies, spoke about
the history of jitter and the work of some of the leading ...

www.aes.org/sections/reports/%3FID%3D232 - 頁庫存檔 - 類似內容AES E-Library » A Jitter Simulator on Digital Data
A simulator is proposed to examine detection threshold of the distortion due to
time jitter. Signals with artificial time jitter are simulated on digital ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Jitter and Digital Audio Performance Measurements
It is well known that timing jitter in digital audio converters can subtly
degrade performance. Unfortunately standard audio measurements are not very ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Measurement of Sampling Jitter using a Musical Signal
A method to measure sampling jitter which might be generated by a digital-to-
analog converter (DAC) or an analog-to-digital converter (ADC) while ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Jitter Analysis of Asynchronous Sample-Rate Conversion
Jitter has become a major limiting factor in the quality of D/A conversion. The
extensive use of serial communications protocols forces the use of PLL-based ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Real Time Measurement of Jitter in CD Players
This paper describes the measurement of the distribution in real time of jitters
occurring in CD players To obtain the jitter distribution, it is necessary ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » The Effects of Sampling Clock Jitter on Nyquist ...
Sampling clock jitter is inevitable in a digital studio environment. The audio
effects of clock jitter on an analog-to-digital converter (ADC) are discussed
...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » IEEE 1394 and Sampling Jitter
Timing fluctuations, or jitter, in clocks can degrade audio quality when the
clocks are used in analogue to digital or digital to analogue conversion.

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容
AES E-Library » High-Performance Jitter-Reduction Circuit for ...
A high-performance jitter-reduction circuit based on high-order phase-locked-
loop technique has been built for digital audio.

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on ...
Many digital audio systems now use some form of self-clocked digital interface
for audio delivery. With the advent of new digital audio systems that use IEC
...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Measurement of Sampling Jitter in Analog-to ...
A method of sampling jitter measurement based on time-domain analytic signals is
proposed. Computer simulations and measurements were performed in order to ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Analysis of Jitter Rejection of SRCs and DACs ...
Some recent sample-rate converters (SRCs) and digital-to-analog converters (DACs
) have included circuitry which rejects jitter on the applied word clock ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Jitter: Specification and Assessment in Digital ...
Timing jitter in digital audio equipment can subtly degrade the audio quality or
even cause data transmission failure. This paper examines the jitter ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Delta-Sigma DAC Topologies for Improved Jitter ...
Specifications for audio digital-to-analog converters (DACs) place requirements
on the analog circuit design that contradict physical design conditions in a ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Fconv%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Jither: The Effects of Jitter and Dither for 1-Bit ...
Jitter in PWM audio can be induced due to timing errors in the PCM and/or PWM
domain. Jither on the other hand is a controlled jitter pattern introduced ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容Characterizing Digital Audio Transformers with Induced Jitter ...
Transformers function in digital audio systems primarily to reject common mode
noise interference, to break ground loops and to enhance balance to reduce ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Dynamic Jitter Filtering in High-Resolution DSM ...
To achieve a high resolution (>18 bit) in a bit stream digital-to-analog
converter, extremely low jitter in the reconstructed signal must be maintained
as ...

www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm%3Felib%3... - 類似內容AES E-Library » Jitter Simulation in High Resolution Digital Audio
To reconstruct an audio waveform samples must be located precisely in time.
Practical
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发表于 2011-4-9 09:40 | 显示全部楼层
先搞清楚你要争论的命题。

两个波形,面积不一样肯定有失真,反之则不一定。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-4-9 09:58 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 南山东篱 于 2011-4-9 09:40 发表
先搞清楚你要争论的命题。

两个波形,面积不一样肯定有失真,反之则不一定。


我的论点是面积很难反映问题。以我图中的论点反正我的论点,当然这个不是很严密地符合逻辑关系。

我也不是什么斗士,也没有那么多精力,只是尽量想画出一个范围说天空不是井口那么大。那些斗士有精力的不如去斗斗量子波导、频谱水等神棍。
音联邦
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发表于 2011-4-9 11:49 | 显示全部楼层
进来汗下先。

本来面积失真论我杜撰出来的,原意想驳jitter的。看到有TX来驳斥面积论,赶紧来受教,不过看了LZ同学的图,反而让我心定

面积失真论是成立的!
香港弦声音响
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发表于 2011-4-9 12:34 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 hifi3eyes 于 2011-4-9 08:20 发表
最近争论jitter的帖子很火啊,分析jitter带来的失真,明明我就贴过人家模拟加入不同形式的jitter后(这里的说的模拟的意思是考虑到实际的jitter形式很难估计,虽然成什么正态分布,所以他们考虑模拟成一种比较简单的形式)实际测量的结果,却被人家说是模拟(计算)的结果,不是测量的结果。


楼主的实测结果是转至下面这篇文章吧?我的英文不太好,看我觉得里边说的是仿真的。[s:98] [s:8] [s:8] [s:8] 你再仔细看看,不然就翻译成中文让像我这样英文比较菜的也看明白了。[s:14] [s:97] [s:30]

Jitter, Bits, & Sound Quality
By John Atkinson • Posted: Mar 7, 2004 • Published: Dec 1, 1990

Jitter is not what digital sound quality induces in the listener; rather it is the instability in the clock signal that controls exactly when the analog waveform is sampled in the original A/D conversion, or when the digital word input into a DAC results in an analog voltage being produced at the chip's output. "So what?" is the response of digital advocates, "As long as a digital one is recognized as a one and a digital zero as a zero, then how can there be any difference in sound?" goes their argument, normally culminating in a fervently expressed "Bits is bits!" Would that things were that simple. As my violin teacher used to say, "The right note in the wrong place is the wrong note." It's the same with digital data. Uncertainty in the precise timing of that digital one or zero results in a loss of system resolution, with audible effects on the finally recovered analog signal. In November's "Industry Update" (Vol.13 No.11, p.78, see Sidebar), Stereophile's Dutch correspondent Peter van Willenswaard neatly showed how an uncertainty of well below 1ns—one billionth of a second!—in the timing accuracy of a 16-bit digital datastream resulting from an original analog signal sampled every 22.7µs, a time interval nearly 23 thousand times larger, equated with a loss of one bit's worth of resolution. As Meridian's Bob Stuart was the first engineer I had ever read who discussed the effect of digital data jitter (footnote 1), and had explained to me at the 1990 WCES that one of the factors behind the sound quality of the Meridian 208 CD player that I review elsewhere in this issue was not so much its use of Bitstream technology but a much-improved transport and data-recovery electronics, I thought it worth looking further at the subject of jitter. In a recent issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, Steven Harris of Crystal Semiconductor looked at the effect of timing jitter on A/D converters (footnote 2). Included in his paper was a Basic program for simulating the effect of any amount or kind of timing jitter on any frequency or level of sinewave signal with A/D converters running with any bit resolution at any sampling frequency (footnote 3). The program outputs a data file consisting of the integer numbers representing the digitized sinewave; with a 16-bit system these range from -32,768 to +32,768. It was a moment's work to write a couple of extra program lines so that these time-data files could be imported by FFT analaysis software. I could therefore synthesize the action of jitter on a digitized waveform and examine the resultant analog effects. (The Harris program is specifically intended for A/D converters, where not-totally-synchronous sampling produces data which are then read with a highly precise clock—something that is easy to synthesize. The situation with a CD player's DACs, where nominally highly precisely clocked data are decoded with a degree of time uncertainty in the sample timing, is clearly the mirror image. The implications of these simulations will clearly, therefore, be transportable to DACs.) I set up the parameters for a 16-bit ADC sampling at 44,100Hz—the CD standard—and synthesized a series of unfortunate 10kHz sinewaves afflicted with jitter ranging from none to 2ns peak-peak (ie, the exact sample time can vary by +1ns or -1ns), with the jitter either random (white) noise or a 1kHz sinewave. I chose 1kHz, not because it is typical of the kind of frequency a jitter signal might have, but because it represents a readily identifiable spurious signal. Jitter of 1ns is typical of a good D/A processor (though Robert Harley tells me that the phase-locked loop that reclocks the datastream in the common Yamaha S/PDIF receiver chip is specified at no better than 5ns jitter). An FFT program was then used to examine the spectra of these signals, which are shown in figs.1 through 5. Figs.1-4 show the effect on a 10kHz signal at the 16-bit system's maximum level (0dB) of jitter having this 1kHz periodicity. Fig.1 shows the spectrum of the pure 10kHz signal with no jitter. A single spike at 10kHz rises above noise components that lie between 112dB and 122dB down. (Summing all these noise components in an RMS manner will give the theoretical 98dB dynamic range of a 16-bit digital audio system.) The curve in fig.2 has had 2ns p-p of 1kHz jitter applied to the data. While the noise components remain the same in level, note that sidebands at 9kHz and 11kHz have sprung up on either side of the fundamental, at -83.9dB and -84.4dB respectively. This 1kHz spacing is, not coincidentally, the exact frequency of the jitter signal. Manipulating the purely digital data has therefore changed the final analog signal, something that the "bits-is-bits" school of commentators would have you believe to be an impossibility. Figs.3 and 4 show the effect on the analog spectrum when the jitter amplitude is lowered, first to 0.4ns (400ps) and then to 40ps—40 trillionths of a second! With reducing jitter amplitude, the sidebands drop until they eventually disappear back into the 16-bit noise floor. Fig.1 Simulated effect of 1kHz jitter on a 16-bit ADC with a 10kHz tone at 0dBFS sampled at 44.1kHz; zero jitter. Fig.2 As fig.1 but with 2ns p-p jitter. Fig.3 As fig.1 but with 400ps p-p jitter. Fig.4 As fig.1 but with 40ps p-p jitter. Fig.5 shows what happens to the sidebands when the 1kHz jitter amplitude is kept constant and the signal is reduced in level (the sidebands drop with the signal, keeping the same -84dB relationship), while fig.6 shows what happens to a 0dB, 10kHz signal when the jitter signal is changed from a pure tone (which is unlikely) to random (white) noise. By comparing fig.6 with fig.1, it can be seen that the addition of 2ns' worth of jitter has lifted the entire analog noise floor by 10dB. In other words, 2ns of p-p noise jitter reduces the simulated signal resolution from 16 bits to less than 15! (Footnote 3) Fig.5 Simulated effect of 2ns p-p, 1kHz jitter on a 16-bit ADC with a 10kHz tone at -20dBFS sampled at 44.1kHz. Fig.6 Simulated effect of 2ns p-p, white-noise jitter on a 16-bit ADC with a 10kHz tone at 0dBFS sampled at 44.1kHz. If you think about it, it is to be expected that digital-domain jitter prior to the DAC will produce effects in the analog domain. With data representing a sinewave signal, every time the sampling instant is late it is as though the shape of the reconstructed sinewave has bulged out a little at that instant. Conversely, if the sampling instant is early, the final sinewave shape will appear to have been sucked in a little. For a given sample time indeterminacy, the relative effect of that bulge or depression in the sinewave shape will be greater the higher in frequency that sinewave. Data jitter therefore has a more severe effect on high than on low frequencies. A shape change on a sinewave is the fundamental description of analog distortion, and with jitter can be seen to produce an effect very similar to classic frequency modulation. In the case of a pure noise jitter, the reconstructed sinewave shape will be overlaid with that noise, giving the reduction in dynamic range seen in fig.6. Are these effects audible? At the 1990 AES Convention in Montreux earlier this year, I sat in on a workshop examining the audibility of peculiarly digital distortion, including the effects of jitter. On pure high-frequency tones, low levels of sinewave jitter could easily be heard. Jitter, however, is unlikely to consist of a pure sinewave applied to the data; it will more likely have a noise-like character. In addition, the data in a CD player are reclocked with crystal precision from a FIFO (first-in, first-out) RAM buffer, or have the clock signal extracted and stabilized with a phase-locked loop (PLL) in a D/A processor. Any jitter produced in the datastream by the CD player's laser pickup or present in the data output by the transport feeding the processor will therefore be very much reduced in level (footnote 4). (Though any jitter introduced at the time of the original A/D conversion will be treated as an intrinsic part of the signal, as in my simulations above, and will be preserved intact.) Nevertheless, these results tie in with work by others that indicates that 16-bit data jitter of any kind needs to be less than 200ps or so if it is not to produce measurable effects in the analog signal (footnote 5), which in turn means that even though the data are reclocked, the crystal clock in the CD player or the PLL in the processor that do that reclocking need to hold their word-to-word timing accuracy to better than 10 parts in a million. And that time precision needs to be preserved during the digital data's travails on its way to the DAC, something that in my opinion is, frankly, unlikely. The audible effect of jitter suggested by these simulations would be to add a signal-related grundge and lack of resolution as the analog signal's noise floor rises and falls with both the signal and the jitter, while any periodicity in the jitter—at the power-line frequency and its harmonics, for example—will throw up frequency-modulation sidebands around every spectral component of the music. The "clean" nature of the original analog signal will be degraded, "fuzzed up" if you like, to produce the typical, flat-perspectived, often unmusically grainy CD sound. Does anyone still feel that "bits is bits"? With jitter applied to the datastream, bits may indeed still be bits, but only if you never convert them to analog—a truly Zen situation!
Footnote 1: In Stereophile Vol.9 No.2, March 1986, where he said in his interview with J. Gordon Holt (p.110) that "One least significant bit of amplitude is equivalent to 200 picoseconds of time...if the timing is off, the output...will not correspond in amplitude to the digital code."—John Atkinson Footnote 2: "The Effects of Sampling Clock Jitter on Nyquist Sampling Analog-to-Digital Converters, and on Oversampling Delta-Sigma ADCs," Steven Harris, JAES, July/August 1990, Vol.38 No.7/8.—John Atkinson Footnote 3: In his paper, Dr. Harris examined whether his simulations were correct by building an experimental setup whereby precisely known quantities and types of jitter could be injected into an A/D circuit. The measured effects corresponded very closely to those predicted by the program.—John Atkinson Footnote 4: It is more accurate to say "filtered" rather than reduced, as each data recovery scheme low-pass filters the jitter rather than eliminates it.—John Atkinson Footnote 5: Although other writers have felt that bit-bit jitter is important, I can't see that this matters, as all this affects is the exact time the stream of 16 ones and zeros is fed into the DAC's serial-to-parallel input register. A one remains a one and a zero a zero; in this respect, the "bits is bits" proponents are correct. Consider an abacus: it makes no difference to the result how fast, how slow, or how unevenly its user manipulates the individual beads. All that matters is the final state of those beads. If you need your abacus to produce its answer at a specific instant, however, then any variation in that time will have an effect. Similarly, jitter in the word-word timing, which will affect the exact time at which the DAC puts out its analog voltage or an ADC takes its analog sample, and which has been examined in this appendix, seems to me to be what is important here.—John Atkinson
Article Continues: Peter van Willenswaard in November 1990 »

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发表于 2011-4-9 12:36 | 显示全部楼层
正弦波5.gif
我在我的面积失真论中,计算失真率是波形面积的相对值差,而不是绝对值。所以你图中,绿线和橙线的面积相对差是蓝色部分的面积,等于原来橙色波形的的面积,用面积计算失真率的话,失真100%。

而实际上,绿色线是你在橙色线上叠加上一波幅与橙线一样,频率是橙线一倍的谐波。换句话说:绿波是橙波谐波失真100%的产物。

[ 本帖最后由 读不进书 于 2011-4-9 12:50 编辑 ]
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-4-9 14:08 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 饿虎扑食 于 2011-4-9 12:34 发表


楼主的实测结果是转至下面这篇文章吧?我的英文不太好,看我觉得里边说的是仿真的。[s:98] [s:8] [s:8] [s:8] 你再仔细看看,不然就翻译成中文让像我这样英文比较菜的也看明白了。[s:14] [s:97] [s:30]

Jitt ...


我又回看了一遍,的确是模拟的,我说错了,因此在首页的地方用红色表示了。
其他没有什么好争论的了。
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发表于 2011-4-9 14:19 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 hifi3eyes 于 2011-4-9 14:08 发表


我又回看了一遍,的确是模拟的,我说错了,因此在首页的地方用红色表示了。
其他没有什么好争论的了。


[s:21] [s:21] [s:21] [s:21] [s:21] [s:21]
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发表于 2011-4-9 14:42 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 读不进书 于 2011-4-9 12:36 发表
2651373
我在我的面积失真论中,计算失真率是波形面积的相对值差,而不是绝对值。所以你图中,绿线和橙线的面积相对差是蓝色部分的面积,等于原来橙色波形的的面积,用面积计算失真率的话,失真100%。

而实际上 ...

    如果两条曲线很接近,不好量化他们的差异,用这两条曲线间面积大小来衡量它们的差异程度是非常合理的。
  这与每条曲线与时间轴所成面积相差多大,是两回事!帖主没有理解你的意思!
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发表于 2011-4-9 14:49 | 显示全部楼层
不懂,但是知道大家在极认真地讨论。[s:20]
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