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[线材] 是什么欺骗了我们的听觉

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发表于 2019-3-3 01:23 | 显示全部楼层
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 01:17
反正都是一個思想,所有人的建議和意見都是屬於參考環節,音響設備必須在環境做好功夫,做好功課,否則日 ...

不是的,你不能把自己放在开拓者的位置上。

你是来享受音乐的,不是来被音响折磨的。

所以,你要会交朋友,把朋友的成熟建议拿过来,然后……你的音响就好听了。

论坛里面的吵架,就是有人要卖货要污染这个朋友圈,另一些人要维护这个圈子的纯洁。这是争吵的根本。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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发表于 2019-3-3 02:07 | 显示全部楼层
光芒四射 发表于 2019-3-3 01:23
不是的,你不能把自己放在开拓者的位置上。

你是来享受音乐的,不是来被音响折磨的。

根據自己的實際情況做實際調整吧,有人喜歡港台流行,有人喜歡古典,有人喜歡現場感,有人喜歡自己演奏,但是有些硬技術上必須知道的,目的都是為了省時間省錢得到自己需要的目的和效果罷了。我比較偏向於上外國的網站看資訊,不乏國外也有水兵,不過按照市場的規範管理而言,中國音響市場水分太多,騙子就不用我說啦,手機,二手車,電腦,音響中國四大騙子奸商市場!
北昌影音
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发表于 2019-3-3 08:49 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
普兰 发表于 2019-3-2 20:21
注:重新阐明我的观点,因为首帖审查时间较长,时而出现“敏感词”红色提示,不断编辑修改,删除词字句较 ...

普兰老师,你也信此人鬼话了?但你怀疑此人动机这个必须顶你!
第三条不敢苟同,这个玩法不严谨,根本不能证明什么问题,只不过是一场闹剧罢了。

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来,西门子,向大家说说,你看出我有什么动机要让普兰老师怀疑? 你连母语文字都看不懂不理解,建议你还是别冒充德国佬的好。。。。。。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 10:34
丹拿新意境
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发表于 2019-3-3 08:54 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 00:40
普蘭是一個行業裡面的專家不是音響行業的專家!!有些高科技和微觀科技的他是沒有太多經驗的,而且知道的 ...

专业音响跟民用音响一脉相通,所谓hifi都是在专业的基础上发展起来的。区别是专业面对的群体没办法忽悠,民用的好忽悠多了!
音联邦
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发表于 2019-3-3 08:57 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 02:07
根據自己的實際情況做實際調整吧,有人喜歡港台流行,有人喜歡古典,有人喜歡現場感,有人喜歡自己演奏, ...

权健们都笑死了。。。
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发表于 2019-3-3 08:59 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
我觉得是追求完美,或者是完美主义的个性,造成音响发烧友们相信各种改善音质的方式方法,至于是否理性丶科学,那就是见仁见智了,本身追求音响高保真就是不理性的选择,后继的动作也不过如此,就是一种玩的过程,带来各种不同的玩法而且,也没有谁对谁错。

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赞同您的分析判断!  发表于 2019-3-3 09:36
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发表于 2019-3-3 09:43 | 显示全部楼层
WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions.

Shunyata Research has become a dominant force in the power delivery field. Owner and designer, Caelin Gabriel is clearly one of the luminaries in the industry. His products have, in many ways, changed the way people think about power cables and raised the bar of performance. Shunyata cables have established themselves among audiophiles and industry professionals as state of the art. The list of manufacturers and professionals that use Shunyata cables is impressive, including the likes of Sony Music New York, Sony Music Japan,
Vienna Philharmonic, Sky Walker Studios, Crest National Studios, Astoria Studios, Audio Research, Wilson Audio, BAT, Meridian, VTL, Bel Canto, Halcro, to name just a few.


ToIntroduction: “There are a lot of misconceptions about power transmission and power quality that make it difficult for some people to understand why a power cord makes a sonic difference. The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect. Most of the thousands of people that use our power cords started out as skeptics and have answered that question for themselves and have found that power cables and power conditioners can have a profound impact on performance. And no - I do not care to debate with people that have not done the simplest of tests about whether power cords work or not. The only cases where a high quality cord does not have significant effects is when it is used with a poor quality power conditioner that acts as a high impedance to instantaneous current flow. “

Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.

Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”

Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.

Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
"Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”

Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.

Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”

Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.

Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
"A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”

Misconception #5: There is some sort of conspiracy among audio designers that keeps them from producing a "proper" power supply that is not affect by power cable quality.

Answer: “This concept is like saying that if a speaker where properly designed, you wouldn't need to use a good quality speaker cable. PowerSnakes have been tested with the most modest of mid-fi equipment and the most exotic state of the art components. We have yet to find a component that cannot be improved by replacing the power cord.
"As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”

Misconception #6: High-end power cords just increase the circuit capacitance acting as a high-frequency shunt
Answer: “There are some power cords that ARE designed this way. Some even insert capacitors within the cable to further increase capacitance. This approach has some positives and many negatives including the reactive interference with the way many power supplies are designed.
"Capacitance alone cannot account for the differences in a power cord's performance. There are some high-end power cords that are very effective that have virtually immeasurable levels of capacitance. These cables are usually designed around hollow tubes with the conductors inside. The conductors are several inches apart and cannot significantly affect the capacitance of the power circuit.”

Misconception #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; always the shorter the cable the better.

Answer: “Some speaker cable designers would argue that a speaker cable below a certain length is not better. We will let them address the issue if they desire.
"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.
"A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.
"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length. But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables.
"There is much more that can be discussed about power delivery but for the sake of brevity I'll cut it short at this point. On a personal note I would like to say that I was an audiophile long before I was a manufacturer of audio products. Before Shunyata Research I designed high speed networking devices and can tell you that there is a lot more money to be made in the computer industry. Like many of the manufacturers of high-end audio components, I design my products for myself and for the love of music. If other people like what I have created - great. If after trying our product you prefer another - great. There is a wide diversity of preference and subjective perception among individuals. Thank goodness there is also a wide diversity of manufacturers that create products to serve a variety of tastes.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc.
Addendum:

“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
"First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
"Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
"Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
"Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
"Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc. follow is a response from Mr. Gabriel that appeared in an on line forum addressing question why power can be such an influential addition to a system.








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这个文章虽有广告的成分。但是也有很多电工理论的东西,至少原理没有错的。不过跟欧姆定理没有啥关系。 总体思想是音频设备的电源线不是越粗约好,有时候细长的有特殊的味道啊。设计思路是需要对动态变化和电磁干扰  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-7 15:35
只认得打嘴炮的,有没有认真关注过这段话: ."As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”我们还没有找到一个不能通过更换电源线来  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-7 12:05
这是老外的广告营销,没错好多知名的音响设备厂商录音室都用很贵的线,但是线材商付给了他们的广告费,要求在CD等出版物上面写明用了他们的线  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-6 17:37
多听音乐吧,听爱听的音乐。
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:06 | 显示全部楼层
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 02:07
根據自己的實際情況做實際調整吧,有人喜歡港台流行,有人喜歡古典,有人喜歡現場感,有人喜歡自己演奏, ...

你是比较乐观。不知道该哭还是该笑。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-3-3 10:16 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 普兰 于 2019-3-3 10:24 编辑
zjj0007 发表于 2019-3-2 22:08
不要自封权威,研究和使用电源线,并从不同电源线听感差异中提升系统水平的很多很多。你听不出,还有以你 ...

谢谢告诫。
文中好像没有自封权威,我也不是什么权威,只是个退休前从事过专业工作的音响发烧友。

“大家都懂的电工知识”恐怕不尽然。或许有些朋友忘了初中的课程。

关于文风可以接受您的告诫。因为我是工程技术人员出身,过去些论文,往往就是文题---论点---论据的定量分析、数理推导---实验结果---定性分析---结论--参考文献等八股格式。枯燥无味。您中国电子科技大学的硕士论文恐怕也难逃八股结构。成都我常去,儿子一家在成都谋生,电子科大也有学生在哪里任教,择日当面向您求教。论坛发帖是应该简洁生动些。以后注意,谢谢!

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轻易下结论和断然否定一个事实是不严谨的。不知你学生在电子科大是哪位,那边我认识的比较多。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 17:25
别把音响当文化  就是个玩耍
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:24 | 显示全部楼层
NOT EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COUNTED COUNTS, AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT COUNTS CAN BE COUNTED."
- ALBERT EINSTEIN.

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遇见过一个数学博士,讨论过爱因斯坦这个问题,我说很多过去理论被推翻了,他说虽然现在有很多新科学认识,但一切规律都是可寻和有依据的,即使是假设也是建立在基础模型上的,当年爱因斯坦的相对论也是假设,但不是  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 10:40
多听音乐吧,听爱听的音乐。
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:26 | 显示全部楼层
不管是何种观点,相信什么观点,拥有什么观点,还是认真钻研探讨的好。
多听音乐吧,听爱听的音乐。
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:34 | 显示全部楼层
el84西门子 发表于 2019-3-3 08:49
普兰老师,你也信此人鬼话了?但你怀疑此人动机这个必须顶你!
第三条不敢苟同,这个玩法不严谨,根本不 ...

来,西门子,向大家说说,你看出我有什么动机要让普兰老师怀疑?

你连母语文字都看不懂不理解,建议你还是别冒充德国佬的好。。。。。。



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换回你马甲再说~ 嘻嘻~  发表于 2019-3-3 10:38
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:39 | 显示全部楼层
sweidong 发表于 2019-3-3 10:34
来,西门子,向大家说说,你看出我有什么动机要让普兰老师怀疑?

你连母语文字都看不懂不理解,建议你 ...

他又换德国大腿了?

换大腿是他的日常操作而已。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:40 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
vic0561 发表于 2019-3-3 10:24
NOT EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COUNTED COUNTS, AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT COUNTS CAN BE COUNTED."
- ALBERT ...

遇见过一个数学博士,讨论过爱因斯坦这个问题,我说很多过去理论被推翻了,他说虽然现在有很多新科学认识,但一切规律都是可寻和有依据的,即使是假设也是建立在基础模型上的,当年爱因斯坦的相对论也是假设,但不是凭空捏造的,而是推算的结果,有些是不可反推的,有些是头尾呼应的。
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发表于 2019-3-3 10:43 | 显示全部楼层
sunrong 发表于 2019-3-3 10:40
遇见过一个数学博士,讨论过爱因斯坦这个问题,我说很多过去理论被推翻了,他说虽然现在有很多新科学认识 ...

前几天我用类似的文字回复过某版主。。。

这些人竟然把科学猜想、假设当成胡思乱想,这是要笑死人啊。

点评

有些人就是哥德巴赫猜想的演变版。到死也想不明白。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 10:50
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