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[线材] 是什么欺骗了我们的听觉

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本帖最后由 普兰 于 2019-3-5 06:31 编辑

是什么欺骗了我们的听觉




为什么多数人在明听可以觉得换上几千的电源线会感到音质变好,而应征盲听,一支不合格超细的DIY线与普通电源线都无法准确分辨呢?只能把这看作听觉遮掩效应。


音响听电源线的差异是徒劳的

1,音响器材的技术指标、音质特色从电源角度讲是本机电源设计、制造决定的,与电网侧无关。否则美国的出口器材到中国就不能用了,因为美国是60赫兹110V交流市电,中国是50赫兹220V市电,配电线路、进户线、电表、空开、插座、电源线都不一样。但在美国杜比实验室与中国科学院声学实验室,只要两家测试仪器通过网络校对一致,那么测试结果也是一致的。


2,音响器材和许多电子家用产品一样,都是按国际IEC标准和中国国家标准来设计生产的,凡出口产品必须符合进口国的国标。如果考虑交流电网侧的不同会给产品造成性能差异,那么设计师就无法设计。好在任何家电产品的性能指标都与电网侧无关,有关的只是有适应电压调整、周波适应。其余都是本机电源。

3,春节本坛123网友的征金耳朵活动,验证了电网侧元件变化是无法识别的,尽管一条标准线、一条超细有2.6欧直流电阻的线,物理差异极大,应征战者听觉十分灵敏,且有电子、声学基础,也无法完全准确判别。原因是:(1)音响设备工作电源是自身供电。(2)音响中的的电源都有一次二次隔离、静电屏蔽、去偶、整流、滤波、稳压,是比较纯净的、额定功率内的线性直流电源;电网侧是每秒方向变化50或60次、瞬间电压从0到正负峰值311伏(平均电压为220伏)变化的交流电。电网波动变化不会引起直流二次侧的明显变化,即使有变化,因为电容是储能元件,会把例如一次侧瞬间掉电的缺失缓冲,稳压设置也会自动调整。蓄水池的比喻,要说明的是目前居民供水是来源自来水管线,但短时停水或水压变化,不影响人们接水,因为我们是吃的小区水箱的水。(3)从哲学意义讲,电网侧与本机电源也不是同一事物,是有依存关系的不同事物,设计也不允许一次侧对二次侧进行改变。

应征试听电源线的网友,如果如果不仅在对比的DIY线径和缠绕方式做文章,而且在功放电源上做文章才能一耳朵鉴别,即使获胜带着1.2万美金去美国要赢100万美金也不可能。因为美国的规则不会像本坛123朋友那样宽松,试听条件,设备、电线都会被严格检查测试。也就是说符合IEC标准的测试条件和器材才可参加。



下图自己画的,说明音响用电与电网侧无关,它用电是自己电源提供的电力。一些高端功放为减小插入电阻,用电路取代喇叭保护继电器,即使断开功放电源,声音还能持续,就是因为电源滤波电容在继续放电,所以即使0.07线径电源线在输出不大时,不会影响功放工作。如同蓄水池,自来水瞬时关断阀门,并不影响水桶接水。

音响其他线路用错线会听出来,而电源线却难于分辨,尤其也是高级音响设备,因为自身电源好,电源线影响越小。所以无论什么原因,是验证真理还是奖金,听电源线都是徒劳的。同理,水池进水管只要设计符合需要,进水速度与这管无关,只取决于自来水管线口径和压力。本帖无意熄灭玩电源线发烧友的雅兴,只是谈谈自己看法。音响就是玩具,咋玩快乐就好。
电源.jpg





别把音响当文化  就是个玩耍
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发表于 2019-3-3 08:54 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
https://shop199139528.taobao.com/
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 00:40
普蘭是一個行業裡面的專家不是音響行業的專家!!有些高科技和微觀科技的他是沒有太多經驗的,而且知道的 ...

专业音响跟民用音响一脉相通,所谓hifi都是在专业的基础上发展起来的。区别是专业面对的群体没办法忽悠,民用的好忽悠多了!
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发表于 2019-3-1 22:09 | 显示全部楼层
阳光。 发表于 2019-3-1 22:06
胡说,普兰大侠是专业人士,所说的每一句话都是专业标准的,

你才是彻彻底底的胡说!你让普兰全面解析一下发烧咸菜。他是电力方面专家,不能就认为是咸菜专家。你简直笨到家了。
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发表于 2019-3-8 18:30 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
zenglj 发表于 2019-3-7 15:35
这个文章虽有广告的成分。但是也有很多电工理论的东西,至少原理没有错的。不过跟欧姆定理没有啥关系。
...

如果一根电源线能够影响声音,要么是线不合格,要么就是功放机不合格。

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* a2508
对,好的设备应该能在一定程度上隔绝来自供电系统的影响  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-20 16:10
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-3-8 11:35 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 普兰 于 2019-3-8 11:51 编辑

本帖小结


本帖只是8万盲听征金耳朵引起的,是娱乐帖,是本人为延缓老年痴呆的随笔。绝无泯灭听电源线者雅兴之初衷。音响是娱乐,只要愉悦,可以不要苛求什么科学规范。


360楼了,已经没继续讨论的必要,况我还有新听音室建设装修。(已委托专业建声队伍,我仅提出风格、色彩、几何比例、100赫兹混响时间要求,对方做预算,合理就付款,术业有专攻嘛!)

首帖的核心内容是,音响设备电源与电网侧有联系但它是独立系统。如同小区供水系统与自来水公司的关系。

设备电源线只是电网供电线路的延长线,为的是柔软,方便接插。只要小区供电线路符合国家公、民建电力设计施工规范,电源线符合国标用电负载电流耐压标准,就会安全、合理地提供给设备供电需要。


因为音响是独立系统,它的通信线缆(信号线)、负荷功率线缆(音箱线)都是音响系统的组成部分,对于最后声音还原是有影响的。但也只限于按设备和功率要求匹配。用线可以调声,只是用错,声音会明显改变。用线调声应该是最笨、因果效应最小的方式。这一点了解一点电声知识就会明白。屋里多个人,仪器可以测出声场谱图变化,换个同规格不同厂家的信号线,频谱分析可能无法分辨。因此掌握一点电声科学知识,不用错线是根本。


调声还是在听音环境下点功夫,音响的最薄弱环节是电声转换(功放对喇叭控制还原能力)和声音传播(室内声学特征)环节。调声应交给播放器的软件工具(如EQ、等响度控制等)。

在此感谢所有为我补充遗漏和纠正错误,以及提出异议和顶楼的网友!

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* a2508
非常赞同普兰老师的理念,线材在整个系统中的重要性应该是最低的,影响也最小。合规的线材就足够了。希望普兰老师以后多介绍一下软件调声的经验  发表于 2019-3-8 12:17
别把音响当文化  就是个玩耍
音联邦
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发表于 2019-3-3 09:43 | 显示全部楼层
WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions.

Shunyata Research has become a dominant force in the power delivery field. Owner and designer, Caelin Gabriel is clearly one of the luminaries in the industry. His products have, in many ways, changed the way people think about power cables and raised the bar of performance. Shunyata cables have established themselves among audiophiles and industry professionals as state of the art. The list of manufacturers and professionals that use Shunyata cables is impressive, including the likes of Sony Music New York, Sony Music Japan,
Vienna Philharmonic, Sky Walker Studios, Crest National Studios, Astoria Studios, Audio Research, Wilson Audio, BAT, Meridian, VTL, Bel Canto, Halcro, to name just a few.


ToIntroduction: “There are a lot of misconceptions about power transmission and power quality that make it difficult for some people to understand why a power cord makes a sonic difference. The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect. Most of the thousands of people that use our power cords started out as skeptics and have answered that question for themselves and have found that power cables and power conditioners can have a profound impact on performance. And no - I do not care to debate with people that have not done the simplest of tests about whether power cords work or not. The only cases where a high quality cord does not have significant effects is when it is used with a poor quality power conditioner that acts as a high impedance to instantaneous current flow. “

Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.

Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”

Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.

Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
"Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”

Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.

Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”

Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.

Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
"A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”

Misconception #5: There is some sort of conspiracy among audio designers that keeps them from producing a "proper" power supply that is not affect by power cable quality.

Answer: “This concept is like saying that if a speaker where properly designed, you wouldn't need to use a good quality speaker cable. PowerSnakes have been tested with the most modest of mid-fi equipment and the most exotic state of the art components. We have yet to find a component that cannot be improved by replacing the power cord.
"As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”

Misconception #6: High-end power cords just increase the circuit capacitance acting as a high-frequency shunt
Answer: “There are some power cords that ARE designed this way. Some even insert capacitors within the cable to further increase capacitance. This approach has some positives and many negatives including the reactive interference with the way many power supplies are designed.
"Capacitance alone cannot account for the differences in a power cord's performance. There are some high-end power cords that are very effective that have virtually immeasurable levels of capacitance. These cables are usually designed around hollow tubes with the conductors inside. The conductors are several inches apart and cannot significantly affect the capacitance of the power circuit.”

Misconception #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; always the shorter the cable the better.

Answer: “Some speaker cable designers would argue that a speaker cable below a certain length is not better. We will let them address the issue if they desire.
"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.
"A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.
"Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length. But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables.
"There is much more that can be discussed about power delivery but for the sake of brevity I'll cut it short at this point. On a personal note I would like to say that I was an audiophile long before I was a manufacturer of audio products. Before Shunyata Research I designed high speed networking devices and can tell you that there is a lot more money to be made in the computer industry. Like many of the manufacturers of high-end audio components, I design my products for myself and for the love of music. If other people like what I have created - great. If after trying our product you prefer another - great. There is a wide diversity of preference and subjective perception among individuals. Thank goodness there is also a wide diversity of manufacturers that create products to serve a variety of tastes.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc.
Addendum:

“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
"First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
"Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
"Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
"Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
"Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
Caelin Gabriel
Shunyata Research Inc. follow is a response from Mr. Gabriel that appeared in an on line forum addressing question why power can be such an influential addition to a system.








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* zenglj
这个文章虽有广告的成分。但是也有很多电工理论的东西,至少原理没有错的。不过跟欧姆定理没有啥关系。 总体思想是音频设备的电源线不是越粗约好,有时候细长的有特殊的味道啊。设计思路是需要对动态变化和电磁干扰  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-7 15:35
* zenglj
只认得打嘴炮的,有没有认真关注过这段话: ."As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”我们还没有找到一个不能通过更换电源线来  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-7 12:05
这是老外的广告营销,没错好多知名的音响设备厂商录音室都用很贵的线,但是线材商付给了他们的广告费,要求在CD等出版物上面写明用了他们的线  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-6 17:37
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发表于 2019-3-3 21:11 | 显示全部楼层
风一样的 发表于 2019-3-3 19:15
不同电源线,进电容的电是不一样的,电子的运动形态不一样,电子在导体里有各种形态,有电子团,有游离,经过不同材质,晶界,形态都会发生变化,进电容也会发生变化,这就是为什么不同电容音色差异很大的原因,把电源线理解成一截带过滤水管,不同线进电容(水箱)自然水有差别。所以电网,线材,电容都会对声音产生影响。电容影响最大,因为进电容,电子运动形态都会收电容影响。其次才是电源线,然后才是电网。

的确,在有用论者眼里,不同电源线,进电容的电是不一样的,君且看这不同的电子形态:

有的是珠圆玉润的,有的是奇形怪状的,
有的是形神枯槁的,有的是鹤发童颜的,
有的是素面朝天的,有的是浓妆艳抹的,
有的是质朴无华的,有的是花枝招展的,
有的是如坠入冰窟,有的是如沐浴春风,
有的是颤颤巍巍的,有的是精神抖擞的,
有的是趾高气扬的,有的是战战兢兢的,
有的是呆若木鸡的,有的是精灵古怪的,
有的是孑孑独行的,有的是三五成群的,
有的是勾肩搭背的,有的是扶老携幼的,
有的是亦步亦趋的,有的是推推搡搡的,
有的是连滚带爬的,有的是蹦蹦跳跳的,
有的是匍匐前进的,有的是勇往直前的,
有的是蹑手蹑脚的,有的是高歌猛进的,
有的是恋恋不舍的,有的是小心翼翼的,
有的是探头探脑的,有的是鬼鬼祟祟的,
有的是扭扭捏捏的,有的是大步流星的,
有的是狗急跳墙的,有的是慢条斯理的,
有的是风风火火的,有的是好整以暇的,
有的骑高头大马的,有的骑倔驴犟骡的,
有的是鱼贯而入的,有的是并辔而行的,
有的是兴高采烈的,有的是心事重重的,
有的是兴致勃勃的,有的是萎靡不振的,
有的是羞羞答答的,有的是落落大方的,
有的是睚眦必报的,有的是大肚能容的,
有的是一步三回头,有的是义无反顾的,
有的是唯唯诺诺的,有的是慷慨激昂的,
有的是猥琐形秽的,有的是冰清玉洁的,
有的是邋遢肮脏的,有的是洁身自好的,
有的是卑鄙龌龊的,有的是光明磊落的,
有的是金刚怒目的,有的是慈祥端庄的,
有的是愁眉苦脸的,有的是笑容满面的,
有的是疑神疑鬼的,有的是一脸懵懂的,
有的是故作高深的,有的是天真烂漫的,
有的是阴险毒辣的,有的是义薄云天的,
有的是顾盼生姿的,有的是步步莲花的,
有的是沉鱼落雁的,有的是闭玉羞花的,
有的是东施效颦的,有的是天生丽质的,
有的是搔首弄姿的,有的是一笑倾城的,
有的是像水一样的,有的是像风一样的,
有的是 ........................................................(后面省略无数字)

哦!卖糕的!

这电子的形态,真是多到只可意会而不可言传,怪不得某些人死抱了发烧电源线材是有用滴、是有一耳朵的区别滴、是有换线如换机的效果之歪理而不放啊~~~


    







点评

其实还漏了最最重要的两个形态没说: 有的是装逼的,有的是阿污卵冒充金刚钻的。。。。。。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 23:22
* yeeypc
家电我谁也不扶,就扶你了。。。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 22:41
菩提非树
明镜非台
本无一物
何有尘埃
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发表于 2019-3-3 20:48 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 xz313 于 2019-3-3 20:51 编辑
风一样的 发表于 2019-3-3 20:29
这里说的合金,不是合金超导,合金对电荷传导本身就有影响了,不用在低温下实现超导,非超导下,不同合金 ...

当然有差异,任何改变都有差异,如湿度,温度,气压,氧气含量,您是的血压,心率等等都有差异,那“金耳朵”们又是通过什么证明是电源线引起的差异呢?一耳朵,换线如换机,一线定生死,连升三级可是这些“金耳朵”们言之凿凿的,要不要俺提供证据啊?
有差异与能听到是两回事吧?就好象三公里外老鼠放个屁,有差异吗?狗能闻到,您能吗?

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* yeeypc
现在是他说能,还要让你证伪。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 20:57
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-3-2 20:21 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 普兰 于 2019-3-2 21:19 编辑
sweidong 发表于 2019-3-2 19:11
好吧,看在普兰老师的面上,就不和他一般见识了。。。。。。

注:重新阐明我的观点,因为首帖审查时间较长,时而出现“敏感词”红色提示,不断编辑修改,删除词字句较多,表达不尽人意,

1,音响听电源线的差异是徒劳的

音响器材的技术指标、音质特色从电源角度讲是本机电源设计、制造决定的,与电网侧无关。否则美国的出口器材到中国就不能用了,因为美国是60赫兹110V交流市电,中国是50赫兹220V市电,配电线路、进户线、电表、空开、插座、电源线都不一样。但在美国杜比实验室与中国科学院声学实验室,只要两家测试仪器通过网络校对一致,那么测试结果也是一致的。


2,音响器材和许多电子家用产品一样,都是按国际IEC标准和中国国家标准来设计生产的,凡出口产品必须符合进口国的国标。如果考虑交流电网侧的不同会给产品造成性能差异,那么设计师就无法设计。好在任何家电产品的性能指标都与电网侧无关,有关的只是有适应电压调整、周波适应。其余都是本机电源。


3,春节本坛123网友的征金耳朵活动,验证了电网侧元件变化是无法识别的,尽管一条标准线、一条超细有2.6欧直流电阻的线,物理差异极大,应征战者听觉十分灵敏,且有电子、声学基础,也无法完全准确判别。原因是:(1)音响设备工作电源是自身供电。(2)音响中的的电源都有一次二次隔离、静电屏蔽、去偶、整流、滤波、稳压,是比较纯净的、额定功率内的线性直流电源;电网侧是每秒方向变化50或60次、瞬间电压从0到正负峰值311伏(平均电压为220伏)变化的交流电。电网波动变化不会引起直流二次侧的明显变化,即使有变化,因为电容是储能元件,会把例如一次侧瞬间掉电的缺失缓冲,稳压设置也会自动调整。蓄水池的比喻,要说明的是目前居民供水是来源自来水管线,但短时停水或水压变化,不影响人们接水,因为我们是吃的小区水箱的水。(3)从哲学意义讲,电网侧与本机电源也不是同一事物,是有依存关系的不同事物,设计也不允许一次侧对二次侧进行改变。

应征试听电源线的网友,如果如果不仅在对比的DIY线径和缠绕方式做文章,而且在功放电源上做文章才能一耳朵鉴别,即使获胜带着1.2万美金去美国要赢100万美金也不可能。因为美国的规则不会像本坛123朋友那样宽松,试听条件,设备、电线都会被严格检查测试。也就是说符合IEC标准的测试条件和器材才可参加。


另外,由于我已申明对个别网友回避,因为道不同,不利于讨论技术问题,只会给本坛添乱。
名词解释“听觉遮掩效应”请读声学教科书:美国理查德:《声学概论》、管善群教授:《电声技术概要》,这是声学界的常用概念,不是生编硬造的词组。这一概念与“心理暗示”也不是同一概念。

点评

普兰老师,你也信此人鬼话了?但你怀疑此人动机这个必须顶你! 第三条不敢苟同,这个玩法不严谨,根本不能证明什么问题,只不过是一场闹剧罢了。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-3 08:49
不要自封权威,研究和使用电源线,并从不同电源线听感差异中提升系统水平的很多很多。你听不出,还有以你目前掌握的大家都懂的电工知识就过早下结论恐怕不妥。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 22:08
这才是真正有养份的技术帖,态度也是有理有节,为普兰老师点赞。。。 另,关于“听觉遮掩效应”一词,似乎又给了某人一个装大神的机会,曲解成什么“心理暗示”想象,并说“听觉遮掩效应”是个令人匪夷  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 22:02
* 永号
普兰前辈电脑软件调音是吾晚辈感兴趣的! 吾玩视频,得知电脑数码技术带来的视频颠覆性认识深有体会。 故音频技术应该在现代电脑数码技术的支持下会有更本性改变。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 21:57
* 4eye
向普兰老师学习,讨论问题就应该这样,条理清晰,有理有据,以德服人  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 20:53
别把音响当文化  就是个玩耍
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发表于 2019-3-3 12:19 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
liyuan-sh 发表于 2019-3-3 12:03
3.3平方的美国铜线,一米的线和5米的线我对比过,5米的效果更明显。
所以,朋友拉电源专线,如果室内距 ...

用铜量多了嘛!这不就印证了你的核心理论罗!
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发表于 2019-3-3 01:23 | 显示全部楼层
ansonho 发表于 2019-3-3 01:17
反正都是一個思想,所有人的建議和意見都是屬於參考環節,音響設備必須在環境做好功夫,做好功課,否則日 ...

不是的,你不能把自己放在开拓者的位置上。

你是来享受音乐的,不是来被音响折磨的。

所以,你要会交朋友,把朋友的成熟建议拿过来,然后……你的音响就好听了。

论坛里面的吵架,就是有人要卖货要污染这个朋友圈,另一些人要维护这个圈子的纯洁。这是争吵的根本。
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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 楼主| 发表于 2019-3-1 19:11 | 显示全部楼层
版主审核了5小时。

点评

版主是学中文的,看不懂你画的啥。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-1 21:07
别把音响当文化  就是个玩耍
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发表于 2019-3-1 20:56 | 显示全部楼层
支持普兰老师的观点
(感慨家电这板块的人太复杂)
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:07 | 显示全部楼层
普兰 发表于 2019-3-1 19:11
版主审核了5小时。

版主是学中文的,看不懂你画的啥。

点评

其他版主学啥的我不知道,我不是学中文的。不好意思您猜错了  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 10:46
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:15 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
“”是视觉掩盖了正确听觉辨识能力。“”——这个解释非常符合大脑中枢采信五感的优先权以及修正神经系统反馈方式的人体生理规律
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:22 | 显示全部楼层
旧水管和新水管出来的水会有区别的,所以应该试试看10年老旗舰线pk全新机线
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:22 | 显示全部楼层
音响真正用的是直流电,市电只是音响的间接电源。

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你点破了  发表于 2019-3-2 08:53
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:30 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
视觉改善听感是很正常的,像看蓝光演唱会看着清晰炫丽图像人会觉得声音并不比CD差,但当你关掉图像单听声音你会发现此时蓝光声音与DVD无异。
还有的人一边上网一边听MP3音质低音炮也觉得爽快无比,并且感觉比一万元音响好多了。
所以很多人看着漂亮音响与炫丽线材声音变好是很正常的,特别声明本人是线材支持者

点评

有视频的情况下,对音频确实没有那么多的挑剔。 看电影往往更关注声音是不是像汽车声,玻璃破碎声,爆炸声……而不是音乐是不是优美。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-1 21:35
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:35 | 显示全部楼层
ou85 发表于 2019-3-1 21:30
视觉改善听感是很正常的,像看蓝光演唱会看着清晰炫丽图像人会觉得声音并不比CD差,但当你关掉图像单听声音 ...

有视频的情况下,对音频确实没有那么多的挑剔。

看电影往往更关注声音是不是像汽车声,玻璃破碎声,爆炸声……而不是音乐是不是优美。

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* yyzai
在AⅤ系统中,有质感的背景音乐更能哄托故事情节,更能融入其中,比如变4中的乡谣,疾杀1中迪厅里开杀前的女声及伴奏,都引人入胜  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-2 16:56
投票统计数据表明,每7个发烧友中。2人会以声音为准,认为好听的更好。另5人会以价格为准,认为贵就是好。
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:50 | 显示全部楼层
不是发烧友无法理解电源线的作用,当然,一般听听不追求更高音质的按楼主说的也没错
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:52 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
我觉得普兰大侠在这论坛说教筒直就是浪费人才,应该去专业灯光音响论坛才有用武之力

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* 普兰
那边高手如林,我也不敢去,也许我是业余高手(靠玩的器材多),但专业我恐怕初段也未入。这边是音响技术的小学,我愿在这里度过童年时光。  发表于 2019-3-2 18:42
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发表于 2019-3-1 21:59 | 显示全部楼层
所谓“视觉掩盖了正确听觉辨识能力”指的就是心理暗示,心理预设,这是因人而异,有条件前提下可能发生的情况,不是确定的情形。对于无关的人,或有正确判断力的人来说就可能不起作用,即视觉不是必然会影响听觉。测试听觉时,如果为了屏蔽视觉可能带来的影响,靠盲听来测试会更省事,但也不是验证发烧友听力的绝对必须方式。

电源线对音响的影响取决于音响设备和供电情况,同样设备和供电条件下不同电源线(规格,材质,工艺,结构.....)对声音重放的影响,应该由专业机构来提供测试数据和案例,而不是靠商家和烧友自说自话,这方面的研究报告和论文厂家、代理商和专业人士应该能够提供。总之,我认为断言符合国标的电源线带来的效果都是一样的也不是科学的态度,还是要通过实验和数据来说明,如果有人说能听出不同电源线带来的声音差别也不应轻易说是视觉带来的结果,或说根本就是欺骗,毕竟每个人的听力水平不一样。JD有不少的厂家广告,提供些专业报告应该不难(只要不涉及商业机密),靠专业理论、实验结果和科学数据来阐述才最有说服力。
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发表于 2019-3-1 22:06 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
vic0561 发表于 2019-3-1 21:59
所谓“视觉掩盖了正确听觉辨识能力”指的就是心理暗示,心理预设,这是因人而异,有条件前提下可能发生的情 ...

胡说,普兰大侠是专业人士,所说的每一句话都是专业标准的,

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你才是彻彻底底的胡说!你让普兰全面解析一下发烧咸菜。他是电力方面专家,不能就认为是咸菜专家。你简直笨到家了。  详情 回复 发表于 2019-3-1 22:09
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发表于 2019-3-1 22:12 来自家电论坛网手机触屏版 | 显示全部楼层
vic0561 发表于 2019-3-1 22:09
你才是彻彻底底的胡说!你让普兰全面解析一下发烧咸菜。他是电力方面专家,不能就认为是咸菜专家。你简直 ...

唉,脑放不够呀,先补下再说
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