何庆华--从转盘[再生电源]-DAC[再生电源]---前级--功放[真正的全电流]

zhangjian1965

感受睿志旗舰（CD7HE+DAC8HE+C8+C33SE）

http://bbs.audio-gd.com/dispbbs.asp?boardid=7&Id=21586

[ 本帖最后由 zhangjian1965 于 2009-4-21 13:49 编辑 ]

乖土拨鼠

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超导？[s:33]
                                                   .

贝塔斯曼

超导？？？超级导弹？

乖土拨鼠

常温下超导这家伙可比跨刀的概念还血腥啊[s:6] [s:6] [s:6]

zhangjian1965

参考一海外初试机

  




  

转自Head-Fi, 发贴者是Peete，在Head-Fi被受敬重。

A few things strike me as I spin discs from Classical to trip hop. O-rganic, highly detailed and very musical, the RE1 is also refined, balanced and will project the space of the reco-rding o-r man made ambiance (post production effects etc) like nothing I've ever heard befo-re. Beyond 3D it would seem..... the speakers and my listening room have vanished with high quality reco-rdings (even lesser quality MT stuff is well presented in these terms in a fairly convincing manner). Bad reco-rdings are still bad but not made even mo-re unpleasant (which is always good ) but great reco-rdings are a revelation of so-rts. I'm tempering my comments somewhat (although it may not seem that I am) because it's also very apparent this DAC is nowhere near done burning in. Bass is light but easily extends to the sub sonic region. Mid range is smooth detailed. Need mo-re time to really evaluate the critical mid and treble ranges. What is there is is very good to say the least.




很少东西可以令我从古典音乐听到流行音乐。RE1具非常高解析力与音乐味，依然精准，声音平衡及重现录音中的音场及人工制作的气氛是我之前从来没听过。超越3D音场。。。。。播放高品质的录音时，音箱及我的听音房象是消失了，（即使差一些的录音也显得不错）。差的录音依然是差但不会令人觉得太难听（依然听起来很不错）。而且优秀的录音也展示出不同类型。我会再修改我的注释，因为它显然还远不够老化。低频不多但很容易地展示出超低频，中频细腻而细节丰富，我需要更多时间去评价中频与高频。现在我最保守的说：“极好”。




Early impressions these are (and subject to change), but tonal qualities are spot on dead neutral, just the way I like it. Piano is the standout instrument that almost always will tell you if a piece of gear has the right stuff mo-re often than not, regardless of burn in ( fo-r the most part, there are however some notable high priced exceptions to this rule but not in the RE1's sub 1.4K US price range).

初听的感觉（以后可能会有改变）是音质非常中性自然，正是我喜欢的声音。钢琴的杰出表现很容易区别出机器的音质是否准确，不管是否老化（绝大多数时候，这需要一些著名的价格高器材已成定律，但1400美元左右的RE1却打破这个定律）

Currawong is going to LOVE this DAC because it po-rtrays piano as the real thing should sound. No brittle edge to upper registers when played with autho-rity no-r does the same register played delicately collapse into a tinkly toy piano like quality that red book could almost be counted on to sound like years ago (and even today with lesser DAC designs) , the piano's woody tone is in co-rrect balance with that almost bell like clarity unique to the instrument's harmonic complexities. It just sounds right with no compression at all,no glare, no packing up when multiple tones are being deftly and expertly played.....brass instruments, wood winds, strings all sound like the real things. Instrument separation and ambiance is superb. This unit is so much better than my old MSB Gold Link P1000 PSU combo it's hard to put into wo-rds. In it's day the MSB combo was considered well above average but not SOTA. I think think RE1 may qualify as a possible contender in the SOTA CLass A range....time will tell.Female vocals are stunning and should only get better. I can only imagine what's to come over the coming weeks and months and this DAC settles in.

Currawong 将会很钟爱这台DAC，因为它表达的钢琴是如此真实。高频不尖锐，在放一些著作时，优美地表达了钢琴的质量，而不是将钢琴表达成玩具琴（尽管今天有较少的DAC 设计），钢琴的木音质平衡得恰到好处，乐器的融洽交错，清晰明了。当多重的音乐同时熟练巧妙地播放时，听起来就像是没有压缩，没有显眼，没有整理。铜管乐器，木管乐器，一连串听起来就像是真实存在的东西。器具的分开和极好的气氛。这个机器比我旧的MSB Gold Link P1000 PSU的组合好太多了，这种感觉很难用语言表达出来。在拥有MBS 组合的时候，曾被认为高于平均水平但在SOTA 之下。我认为RE1可以取得在SOTA的顶级的竞争对手的称号。时间会证明和的声音是极好的并且会越来越好。我只可以想象DAC 短时间内带来的效果。

Some drawbacks ? It's heavy and too big fo-r my Lovan Classic II gear rack, the IEC socket (in the center of the RE1 back panel, the most logical spot fo-r ot due to the circuit layout) is right where the back pillar of the rack goes to the floo-r spikes. Other than that I really can't think of a negative right now. I've also used this unit with the COAX Digital input and the SE outs knowing that these choices are the wo-rst perfo-rming connections of what's available fo-r use (BNC and CAST would be ideal)....tomo-rrow I will mod my Transpo-rt to use the much preferred BNC digital input. The end of the week my parts come in fo-r some Vampire DIY XLR cables. Once that is done I can test the CAST/XLR outs to the C-2C balanced?CAST inputs.

RE1有些什么缺点？就是太重了，以及相对于我的Lovan Classic II来说，太大了，IEC插座（在RE1后板的中间，非常符合设计电路的逻辑）所在的地方正是后面的支柱。除了这，我现在不认为还有其他缺点的存在。我同样这部机器用于RCA同轴输入和RCA输出，但我知道这是在所有可用的连接方式中最差的一种（BNC和CAST 会是最理想）。明天我会用我的转盘安装完美的BNC数字输出。这个周末我将会继续我的Vampire DIY XLR电线测试。就是说我可以测试C2C 的CAST/XLR的平衡输出，CAST的输入。

Oh yeah the other drawback (besides being big and heavy which is plus in my mind but a negative in others) is....burn in time.......1000 hours (thanks Tyson fo-r the heads up in that regard) is a looooooonnnng time but I'll do my best to get those hours on it as fast as I can. I can deal with these drawbacks happily, fo-r this kind of SQ. This unit is an obvious outstanding value fo-r those on a budget.....well time to get back to some listening befo-re getting some sleep !!!

Hmm seems lime a lot of wo-rds fo-r just a little preliminary repo-rt. I'm just passing on what I heard today....no fluff o-r filler unless I start getting paid fo-r this job (which will likely be never)

There goes the electric bill fo-r April and May

Peete.

其他的缺点（除了我个人认为的重量大及体积大正合我意，但其他人可能不认同）就是老化的时间—1000个小时（因为Tyson 以前的话让我想起来）是一个超长的时间，但我会尽可能尽快的老化。我很乐意处理这些缺点，因为可以听到这期间不同的音质。这一台明显是一台物超所值的并且会节省费用的机器。睡觉前还要再听一些音乐！！！

这一大堆话只是一个初步报告，我会记录了今天我所听到的。这段时间需要的付出就是4月或5月的电费单。

zhangjian1965

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另外一位海外爱好者提供的注释
MSB GOLD LINK sale in 2002 and cost – USD 1895, plus P1000 PSU cost – USD399, SO total cost is =  USD2294



See link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/v ... werbase-1-2002.html



It was review very high Quality DAC.. BUT PEETE say IT IS NO COMPARE.. SO GOOD IS REF1 than MSB Gold…



Peete提及的MSB GOLD LINK在2002年海外售价是1895美元，加上P1000电源处理器399美元，总数是2294美元。 在中国这一般要贵30%。

网址：

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/v ... werbase-1-2002.html

MSB GOLD LINK 是一台非常高级的DAC，但Peete认为没有对比的必要，RE1远好于MSB Gold.





I search the web, it seems SOTA is not a company but a technology used by very high-end companies like Mark Levinson, Proceed etc.. it’s a State Of Art Technology.. these are very very high price gears.. fo-r example to upgrade o-r mod a CD player to SOTA technology it costs USD USD1995, see link :



http://www.referenceaudiomods.co ... mp;Product_Count=42



So when Peete talk about reference one can Compete with SOTA Class A DAC, it mean it can compete with very high end DACs, as it is Too best than his MSB Gold and PSU..



I hope you get the link and price of MSB Gold and PS1000 link – Peete think MSB Gold is medium end gear, while ref1 Compete with very High end DAC.. Like SOTA CLASS A..



Class A is the highest grade in SOTA..



Peete 提及的SOTA不是一个产品，而是一项技术（类似于中国的摩机）使用非常高级的器件，如Mark Levinson, Proceed 等。 这是一种正式的艺术技术，非常极端高价的机器，例如将一台CD机摩成SOTA技术，价格是1995美元，看连接

http://www.referenceaudiomods.co ... mp;Product_Count=42

当Peete认为参考一可以与SOTA的A级DAC对比，意味着可以与非常Hi-end的DAC对比，也就是比他的MSB Gold+外接电源好太多。

我希望你看看MSB Gold and PS1000 link 网址中的标价， Peete认为MSA Gold是中级机中的顶级，而参考一要对比的是极品级的DAC，象SOTA的A级。

A级是SOTA中的最高级。

贝塔斯曼

人家改了[s:21] [s:21] [s:21]

zhangjian1965

I have been listening all week to the RE1 in the main system and I am amazed by this DAC's abilities. It sounds as good as SACD/DVDA I kid you not. It's that o-rganic and dynamic. It's not even halfway done burn in yet with my jaw being continually picked up off the carpet every time I listen to it it's starting to get rug burn

我在我的主系统中聆听RE1已经整整一个星期，这台DAC的实力令我惊奇。我没有骗你，它的声音好得象在放SACD/DVDA一样。它的声音是那样的有条理（中性）与动态。即使只是在老化中，但每次聆听也令我疯狂，无法用语言去表达。






“after you get 4 o-r 5 days on it things really start to open up rather wide, added depth, bass extension. Midrange and highs that are co-rrect and oh so buttery smooth. Nary (NO) a hint of softness no-r hardness to these regions. Perfect balance IMO.

经过了4-5天，它真的开始好了，宽与深的音场，及低频延伸。 中频与高频中性正确而细腻。没有一丝过柔软或过硬。在我看来非常完美平衡。



I've found my planar ribbons completely disappear as point sources and in there place the venue of the reco-rding is recreated down the tiniest detail all while sounding completely analog. I agree with your violin assessment and also the neutrality of the unit, it's remarkable how it disappears and lets the music flow. My main system sounds incredible with top shelf reco-rdings.....This thing is wo-rth every single penny.”

zhangjian1965

另外一位荷兰用户的初听感觉。

他是一位博士，他父亲是荷兰著名的音响设计师。



First impressions



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Time fo-r some first impressions. O-r actually, I feel it's still way too early even fo-r first impressions, but because I will be feeling that way fo-r the coming months, I might as well get it out of the way now.



是时候发表一下最初的听感报告了。或许在实际上，我依然感觉太早发表听感，因为我觉得在将来的几个月，它在不断老化中越来越好。

As said befo-re, I'm using the Reference One in a very basic setup. Fed by a Pioneer hi-rez player (RCA -> BNC) and with RCA output to my Co-rda Opera amplifier.



就象之前说过，我使用参考一只是非常基本的配搭，信号源是先锋的 Hi-Rez 播放机，用RCA到BNC的同轴线，参考一用RCA输出到我的 Co-rda Opera 放大器。

Where to start? I could talk about definition, separation, instrument colour, acoustic cues, etc, but that all feels rather irrelevant, the Reference One seems to do these things as if they didn't pose a challenge fo-r a DAC. They are so well done that they don't strike you as distinguishable properties anymo-re. Transparency indeed.



从哪方面说起？我能说说解析力，分离度，乐器的音色，音乐味等，但感觉这些方面都不相关，参考一在这些方面毫不修饰，这些方面都表达得相当完美，令你再不能找到缺点，这就叫高度还原。

It's interesting that it always only strikes  me in hindsight that I apparently was straining to hear certain things with previous equipment. It might be a very impo-rtant aspect of good upgrades that they provide a mo-re relaxing listening experience, that simply allows your mind to connect to the music mo-re directly. Transparency again.



有趣的是，当我听了参考一，它令我想起以前的其他器材，需要我很努力或紧张地去注意音乐中的细节，但在参考一令我很轻松地听到音乐中的所有。这是很重要的改善，你可以轻松地听音乐，允许你的思想直接接触音乐，这又叫高度还原。

There is one aspect of the Reference One that really stands out fo-r me. First of all, and what appears to be it's real "party-piece" is spaciousness. It happened to me quite a few times already that I put on a new cd, wearing the K500 headphones, and, fo-r just a second, have to do a doubletake to check if I haven't accidentally switched on the large floo-rstanding speakers. It might go a little too far to say that, analogous to Peete's observation of his speakers disappearing, the Reference One makes my headphones disappear, but it comes close sometimes, remarkably close. An effect that's even very present with mono reco-rdings.



对于我来说，参考一其中一个真正的优越性就是参考一创造了一个巨大的音场，非常逼真，很多次我放入一张新CD，戴上K500耳机，一开声，我要检查我是否打错开关，开了巨大的落地音箱。可能有点难于表达，就象Peete的观点说他的音箱消失了一样，参考一同样令我的耳机消失了。特别是听MONO的音乐。



Another thing is naturalness. Although I don't seem to suffer from the same sensitivity to digititis that Curra has, I'm hearing fo-r the first time the full complexity of something like the sound of a grand piano o-r a violin. Voices have a richness and body that I hadn't even hoped could be realised by the redbook-fo-rmat. But mo-re than this is the simple fact that music through the Reference One speaks to me much mo-re strongly and hits me that much harder emotionally.

另外一个是自然中性。我第一次听到完全真实的声音，三角琴，小提琴。人声丰满而有型体，我从来没有从普通的CD格式中听到过。很简单的，参考一令我觉得，只有我与音乐一起。




It is usual with upgrades to talk about how your new purchase lets you hear certain things in your reco-rdings that you hadn't heard befo-re. That's not the case here, because I actually often have a hard time recognizing reco-rdings that I thought were very familiar to me. They sound that different and new.

通常大家买了新机器都会认为可以从新机器听到旧机器所没有听到过的声音。但在参考一中却不适用这个说法，因为我经常花很多时间去听唱片所以很熟识，但参考一的声音却是完全不同。

Usually that's a good thing, sometimes it is not. Sometimes you don't want to hear what's actually on the reco-rding. One of my favourite opera reco-rdings, Karajan's Turandot (DG) is revealed in all its early digital awfulness. And I shouldn't even speak of what ho-rro-rs I encountered with some albums of extreme metal. Oh dear...



有时这时一件好事，但有时却不时，因为有时你不愿意听到录音的本质。一张我喜欢的歌剧录音，Karajan's Turandot (DG)，显露出早期录音的数码声。我也不必提一些其中的唱片中恐怖的金属声了。

Usually what a reviewer says at this point is that the unit is 'unfo-rgiving of bad reco-rdings', but that wouldn't be the right way to put it. There seems to be a distinct dividing line among reco-rdings, between "The Bad" and "The Ugly". I have plenty of bad reco-rdings, take a good example like Mravinsky's 1952 reco-rding of Shostakovich' Symphony #7 (BMG/Melodiya), not a good reco-rding to begin with and to make matters wo-rse it also has been 'cleaned' with the universally dreaded NoNoise process. But it doesn't sound 'bad' in the strict sense, actually it sounds much better and far mo-re enjoyable than I've ever heard it. The same goes fo-r another rather extreme example, Enrico Caruso's earliest reco-rdings from 1902 (Naxos Histo-rical). Yes, the surface noise of the shellacs is presented in just as much detail (if not mo-re) as Caruso's voice, but once you listen through that you can discover a dimensionality in the reco-rding that wasn't there befo-re.

有些人说参考一是不能听差的唱片，但这是不正确的。我们要介定录音是差还是非常差。我有很多差的录音，但听起来却不差，象Mravinsky's 1952 录音的 Shostakovich' Symphony #7 (BMG/Melodiya)，这不是一个好的录音，没有经过噪音处理，但在参考一中听起来却不差，并且还比我之前在其他器材中听好很多。同样另外一个例子是Enrico Caruso's 在1902年的录音 (Naxos Histo-rical)，胶唱片与唱头的摩擦声伴随着 Caruso 的歌声，但当你一听到时，却感觉到音场的宽广是以前没有过的。




I feel like I've embarked on an unexpected voyage of discovery. And I have thousands of cd's to go.



That's it fo-r now. Did you really expect it to be anything less than gushing?

我觉得我象开始了一个“发现之旅”，我有上千张CD片等着我去重新发现。

现在，你认为我拥有参考一后，是否足够喜悦？

乖土拨鼠

原帖由 贝塔斯曼 于 2009-4-21 13:54 发表
人家改了[s:21] [s:21] [s:21]

刚看题目吓死我了，还以为世纪难题让做音频的给攻克了呢~~~~~~~~

zhangjian1965

Good job Dro of trying to explain what the RE1 doesn't bring to the table.....I know it may seem rather odd to view this DAC in that light but I agree with Curra's methodology fo-r this DAC as it represents a very different way of trying to describe this DAC, since the RE1 does not present in a classical sense, any of the traits of current o-r past DAC sound qualities we have become used to listening fo-r, and as such makes it really tough on the end user to come up with meaningful wo-rds to describe the RE1's abilities.

Dro，你关于RE1的解释非常好。我清楚参考一是很难去描述，但我同意Curra的方法去描述参考一与其他的DAC的分别。参考一所提供的感觉是我之前及当前的DAC所无法相比的，所以很难用语言去形容参考一是如何的优秀。

I think the DSP1 chip is one of the keys to this unit's success the other keys being fairly obvious I would think (PSU build, DAC chip selection, analog output stage etc...). That being said I still feel the Cyclone II is the critical facto-r as it does away with aspects the other chip types struggle with when making sense of the data stream. The technical aspects one need not have a complete grip on to appreciate but it does explain (in part) why the RE1 may have a critical advantage over other DAC's that relates directly to SQ results.

我认为DSP1是参考一成功的一个主要的原因，其他原因我认为是稳压电源的阵容，DAC芯片的选择，模拟输出级等。我也认为DSP1用的Cyclone II 芯片比一般常规的芯片处理数据流时要更好。技术状态不能完全令爱好者好奇，但至少可以从参考一的技术规格说明上解释为什么参考一比其他的DAC音质更好。

Moving on....



My unit continues to improve with increment shifts (level of stage depth, dynamic contrast, textural depth etc) that I will get into later on when I've had better chance to fully evaluate what's happening (o-r not happening ).

我的参考一继续不断变好，如音场深度，动态，质感等，稍后当我有足够的时间聆听后，我会深入评价。

SNR is SOTA, period. I have never experienced a blacker presentation, it's truly remarkable the way notes. voices, etc simply appear, fade in , fade out with this unit...nothing is truncated, compressed o-r confused/smeared no matter how simple o-r complex things get regardless of level (from titanic bursts to the softest most delicate of passage). 100% honesty in tone shading etc....amazing transparency comes to mind each and every time I sit back and hit the play button !



信噪比是Hi-End的特点，我从来没有过这种宁静的音质重放的经验。比如声乐，渐渐的来或消失， 没有什么会被淹没，压缩，，什么都听得清清楚，100%完全的忠实重放。无论何时，我只要坐下按下播放键，我总是吃惊于那高度透明的声音。

I'm nearing the halfway mark (I feel give o-r take 50 hours) of 500 + hours meaning (with the tidbit spoke about previously) what Drosera and Curra have described thus far is exactly what I'm experiencing mo-re o-r less.

我的参考一已老化了500多小时了，我完全同意Curra 与Drosera对参考一的精确描述。

IMHO the RE1 simply does a masterful job with no drawbacks that I can find (so far).

在我看来，参考一轻易地表现出Hi End 的物质，我至今无法找到 任何缺点。

zhangjian1965

“I'm too tired to give impressions of anything. Today was so busy that evening listening to music is tiring. I am trying to get an impression of the sound from the Ref 1 though, and all I can get is that it has no signature. It's as if it's not there at all. 15Kgs of electronics that isn't there. That's as strong an impression as the Ref 1 is heavy -- I keep looking at the rack wondering if it's really plugged in. Seriously!

今天我非常累，以至难于评价任何事物。今天工作很忙，傍晚在劳累中聆听音乐。我尝试去写个RE1的听音印象， 但我只能认为它没有音染。就象不存在一样，15KG重的电器不存在，这是我对RE1的印象，我不时地望向机架，看看它是否真的存在。真的！

You know we've been screwing around with the Zero, screwing around with the opamps, the HDAMs, then the Compass, and all this stuff fo-r a year o-r mo-re now, and talking about how this has such a sound, o-r that sounds different, so when we plug stuff in, we can turn and look at it and say to ourselves, yeah, I remember that sound that it produces. Well, I can't do that with the Reference 1. It's like it doesn't exist, like the obelisk in "2001, a Space Odessy". I keep thinking about the sound the Stax rig produces instead, now I'm not distracted by how digital the No-rthstar sounds.”



你们知道，我们在过去的一年中甚至更长时间中，不断地纠缠于ZERO（DAC），纠缠于 OPA， HDAM，然后是Compass ， 并讨论，这个是什么音色，那个又有什么不同，所以当我们接通电源，我们可以转换（OPA）以及告诉我们自己，yeah， 我记得它产生了什么音色。但我不能在参考1中做这些，它象不存在的，我们只是听到Stax （转盘） 的声音。现在，我已不必再苦恼于 No-rthstar的数码声。

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No-rthstar DAC 售价在外国约2500美元。

zhangjian1965

转盘[同轴电流输出]---DAC[电流输出]---前级[电流输出]---电流输入到后级

贝塔斯曼

原帖由 zhangjian1965 于 2009-4-21 14:07 发表
转盘[同轴电流输出]---DAC[电流输出]---前级[电流输出]---电流输入到后级

用自己专用接头？

贝塔斯曼

原帖由 zhangjian1965 于 2009-4-21 14:07 发表
转盘[同轴电流输出]---DAC[电流输出]---前级[电流输出]---电流输入到后级

好像你的设备只能和你自己的东西匹配吧？