外行尝试'内行'地看钢管经典车

agun672

我在网上问:談到MASI及天才設計師Mario Confente,説她們爲鋼管車界設立了標準乃至'聖經',這個標準的尺度和影響表現在哪?


台湾网友其回覆如下:

傳統的義大利賽車

符合"運動性\"使騎乘者在車上有正確姿勢

"穩定性"以對各種路況做出反應

符合"效率"由腳踏的動力傳遞到後輪上

三項因素取得平衡


歸納來說,標準賽車的車架設計標準須符合...

1.正確的騎乘姿勢

2.操作穩定性

3.踩踏效率最佳化

不僅鋼管車,大多數的現代賽車大多依循這個設計標準...
我想Masi被神化,正因為祂就像神創造人類ㄧ樣,決定了人類的五官長得怎樣...呵...我瞎說的...


那么先看看'神话'般的MASI吧;看什么呢,陈词滥调,'看细节看细节'!

agun672

交易区新帖推荐

上面的Italian Masi Gran Criterium in June 1971的赛车是经过美国大师级RICHARD SACHS的重新翻新过的,RICHAD SACHS称这个翻新过程为'Period Correct',使他温故而知新'........
他对70'S 意大利钢管单车的巅峰造诣评价如下,和台湾MASI爱好者及經典車网友的答复几近一样,乃'心有灵犀一点通'的共识...

During those 10 years Sachs has become an Italiophile—he has moved away from the framebuilding styles and attitudes of the country where he first learned his craft.  "(In England) I learned to build frames," said Sachs, but the way I do things now bears no resemblance to what I learned there.  In England, at least at Witcomb, the frames were truly made to order.  The framebuilder's job was to execute the frame according to the design the customer wanted.  Once that was done, they would ornament it however the client wanted.  That's not how it's done in Europe or Italy."

That's not how Sachs does it either.  "Once the size is determined," he said,"the customer doesn't get to tell me what lug to use or what style to use.  People leave it up to me—my methods are established."

The Italian method of framebuilding that Sachs has adopted dictates that a framebuilder should be true not only to his client but to himself.  The frame's design should reflect the builder's years of experience—not the customer's whims.  "The Italians look at the longevity of a design rather than whether it was made for a particular use, fashion, or style," said Sachs.

"Throughout the 1970s," he added,"when people were making criterium, time trial, or touring bikes, most good Italian frame manufacturers continued to develop a racing frame that could cross over into any competitive event.  That's what I feel is really important."

Because he has spent his own career trying to perfect his own "crossover bike", Sachs does not like to speak in terms of frame angles or fork rake.  "I have a thing about using angles to describe frame design.  People always talk about the seat and head angle determining the bike's stiffness.  But the seat angle has only one function—to position the rider, not to make the bike stiff or make it handle in a particular way.  In my opinion, the head angle of a frame is as important for positioning and upper body reach as it is for (determining) steering."

Sachs wants people to understand that a good frame is a function of how the frame rides and how the rider fits on it.  Frame angles are meant to serve those ends rather than determine them.  "I think if I were to broadcast the fact that my bikes have two inches of fork rake and that the head angle varies between 72 and 73 degrees—unless I could get up the nerve to say that this is the absolutely best there is—it would follow me around.  People would say these are antiquated designs.  I don't think they are.  They make my bikes fit and ride well."

b29-mk

意大利高级单车贵贵地说[s:6]

agun672

发现自己'大胆'的很,看了几篇文章,就想去'发掘'经典单车的'知',以备将来的'识',花小钱买'艺术品','空手套白狼'乃我的'志向'........[s:14]

agun672

台湾网友ASAHI介绍的经典钢管单车图鉴(主要是手工'质化'产品)在:
http://bigapple.idv.tw/phpBB2/index.htm
在'美到爆的鋼管車'这贴里,ASAHI重点介绍他的欣赏基本底线:前后勾爪(dropout)焊接地方要修整.LUG连接钢管处要切豆腐般利索,线条清晰,前叉的肩盖(fork crown)尽量要有;检查没有MITER问题的地方是五通的内部.........
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdet ... mp;t=565893&p=1

但是问题来了,每当去到发烧友的单车商店,'工业标准化'高质量的非钢管车产品细节一样让自己赞叹;而单车的制造技术可说是个人都可以按教程去做;经典钢管车除了材质/焊接方法/使不使用LUG连接管材外,在什么地方凸显?RICHARD SACHS说工业标准化的量产是用脑子做的而非用'心'去做(they make it by mind,not by heart)该如何理解?

agun672

交易区新帖推荐

把alex moulton new series video 看了五遍(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8522870086389552343),结合Tony Hadland 写得Design Evolution of the Moulton Bicycle(http://www.hadland.me.uk/page21.html),大概得出大师级制造经典钢架车和设计师制造单车的区别:
1.WHAT IS RIGHT FOR ONE RIDER,HOW TO IMPROVE THE SKILLS属于大师制造者的思路
2.WHICH WORKS BETTER AND WHAT THE FACTORY  CAN BUILT ACCORDINGLY,FINAL TESTED TO MATCH THE TASK.这是设计大师的'科学'工艺之路

所以对大师级的手艺,你要抛开工科逻辑,讲究'心与灵'(HEART AND SOUL)去'看'每个细节之处,去FEEL AND BE TOUCHED'感和受',而且最终得到一种'TRUST';而讲'科技'的单车,你得弄懂每个'突破'之处BREAK  AWAY,是否合理,设计目的是否达到,而且不需要'TRUST'而要不断的实际'测试'数据去改进再'BREAK THROUGH'.

老实说,两者都很难...............不胜惶恐..............靠

agun672

一种诉求'全身心投入'而辨别分别的方式,如果'看呀看,看不出来',最好让'鬼神告知'了.........

一种每个目的都能让'公理原理数据'细细分析朔源,那么这种'工底'也够人去学一辈子啦..........

两者都是'简单而不易'SIMPLE BUT NOT EASY

agun672

THERE IS NO TRUST IN SCIENCE;信,人言;科学里不需要'言人'......

Do you understand,do you feel the same?

伊豆

不知道他们设计的时候有没有象设计跑车一样考虑风阻系数？还有重要的空气动力学？[s:30]

agun672

对那些造经典钢架单车的大师来说,风阻系数,空气动力学,甚至材料都不大考虑,他们一般都是单车运动的'狂热者'或其中的佼佼者;他们考虑最多的是一部车如何FIT适合一个特定的人,不管骑20公里还是200公里,公路还是越野赛,赛者骑上车感觉'舒适'和'稳妥',车子值得信赖而且并不感觉车子'存在',赛跑就像用自己的两大腿;他们一般都能做到只要得到骑者的身高臂长腿长,就能靠着经验和大脑的'三维想象力',造出符合骑者的车子,而且美得无可挑剔,当然价格也是让普通人大吃一惊,只有吞口水的份......

科技的单车,从材料,脚踏效率,路阻,风阻,弹力,反正只要能计算的,全部考虑进去,话说'道生一,一生二,三生万物',考虑的因素太多,以至单人不能掌控,只好'团队合作'TEAM WORK',不断妥协不断迁就,不断积累数据,不断突破革新,不断尽量适合接近大多数人,不断找小白鼠试验结果........如何FIT一个特殊的个体渐渐地被'遗弃',大概是一个特定的特殊的无法'计算'的后果.........车子将就地看还行,要是像经典钢架大师级的车在千分之一寸里找'完美',基本SAY GOODBYE...[s:14] [s:14] [s:97] [s:97]

agun672

大师造的车是ready to go,if broken then repair it

高科技的车是ready to be tested,if not work better,then improve it.....

efox

这个一般多少钱一辆？

agun672

这个前几年收,车架大概在800-1500美金,现在欧美日本台湾地区都在网上抢,前几个月一部COLNAGO80十年代的被台湾7-8万港币买去.........[s:18]

60-80年代MASI的车架现在有价无市,Mario Confente的车少于15万,基本BYE BYE.....

台湾收藏者一般都有无限耐心,天天在各大EBAY候着.........

俺对这些老古董不太感兴趣,毕竟买来还是以骑为主,欣赏收藏是次要的;唯一的愿望是下订单给RICHARD SACHS造一部适合自己的钢管单车,可若要买,也得排上5年甚至更长时间交货.............YY好了....

fjwss

看不懂[s:63]

丁大丙

[s:97] 好车